Transcript for
Fatherhood and culture: Strong, proud and connected

Narrator (00:02): 

Welcome to the Emerging Minds Families Podcast. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (00:06): 

Hi, I’m Nadia Rossi, and you’re listening to an Emerging Minds Families Podcast. Before we start today’s episode, we would like to pay respect to the traditional custodians on which this podcast was recorded, the land of the Ngarrindjeri people. We also pay respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, their ancestors and elders past, present, and emerging from the different First Nations across Australia. 

(00:33): 

Today, we’re joined by a special guest host, Emerging Minds Senior Cultural Development Officer, Rosie Schellen. In this episode, Rosie talks with Harley Hall, a proud Aboriginal father of three. Harley speaks honestly about feeling judged by systems and about the strength he finds through culture and community. Harley talks about what it can take to keep showing up for your kids even when life feels heavy, and the everyday moments of fatherhood that keeps him connected to his children. Let’s get into this conversation with Rosie and Harley. 

Rosie Schellen (Host) (01:09): 

Hi, Harley. Thanks for joining me today. Can you tell me a little bit about yourself first? 

Harley Hall (Guest) (01:15): 

My name’s Ngrakani Harley John Hall. I’m a proud Ngarrindjeri, Kokatha, Wirangu man. Mum’s side’s from Raukkan, Point McLeay, and my dad’s side is from Ceduna, Koonibba Mission. I’m a father of three. I’ve got Solara Pearl, my oldest daughter, and Harley, my son, and Calira, my youngest. 

Rosie Schellen (Host) (01:30): 

Tell me what it’s like being a dad for you. 

Harley Hall (Guest) (01:33): 

For me, being a father is the best feeling, the best accomplishment that I’ve ever had in my life, I guess. And everything that I do is living around my children, and I try and be the best person I can possibly be because of my children. And family’s everything to me. And I believe that healthy families and everyone deserves to be happy and healthy, and there’s nothing more important than family. Without family, we got nothing. So yeah, so our kids are our future and we want our children to be strong and loud and proud and be healthy and mentally, emotionally strong as well. So for them to be strong in that, they need their family and their dads play a big part of their lives. They learn everything from their mother and father. 

Rosie Schellen (Host) (02:07): 

You’ve mentioned to me in the past conversations that you feel you need to prove yourself to the system. Why do you think that is? 

Harley Hall (Guest) (02:15): 

Because us as men, we don’t have a voice and we have to prove ourselves, which is more hardy. And I haven’t done nothing wrong in this whole time, but in the last five years I’ve been getting dragged over the coals, I feel like, and having to prove myself over and over. With my children, I feel like they’re best in my care. And I’ve gone from that to actually fighting just to see my children because of false accusations and stuff. And it wasn’t even towards me or anything like that. And I feel like I’m getting blamed for something that I haven’t even done and having to prove myself to be a caring father that I am. 

Rosie Schellen (Host) (02:43): 

Do you think it’s about being a dad, but do you also think it’s about the colour of your skin? 

Harley Hall (Guest) (02:47): 

We’re definitely getting stereotyped. Well, being black, and I think even when they look at me, I’m an artist and I have art on me. All these tattoos and stuff, they have meaning to me. But I think I definitely get judged. People look at me as a big, scary looking Black fella. And I think with the news and that sort of stuff and all the negative stories that they have of us as drummed out there in the world is I believe that’s why the world’s so hard for us being Black fellas. And yeah, definitely have a toll and we’re getting judged whether we like it or not. 

Rosie Schellen (Host) (03:18): 

So I know as well that you’ve got an informal men’s group with your brothers. What’s that like for you? 

Harley Hall (Guest) (03:18): 

Yeah, so we like riding motorbikes and stuff, but it’s not really about the motorbikes. It’s more like a brotherhood, like a cultural group. We call it a cultural group. And we go camping together and we ride motorcycles and dirt bikes and we like to ride and we all grew up on bikes and that sort of stuff. So we use that to bring us together and we travel the country. So we could be on anywhere really, and we travel together and just get around, support each other. We got social media chats and stuff where we talk daily. And when someone’s feeling down though, you can tell by what they’re posting on socials and that sort of stuff. And then we flick each other messages. 

(03:48): 

I think laughter and humour is our biggest thing. So we always putting up funny things and everyone can connect to it and puts a smile on our face. But even just having my brothers or my friends or people around me that I like, just being present. We could be sitting around and sometimes not even saying anything, but just being there present together, getting around each other is everything. 

Rosie Schellen (Host) (04:06): 

Why do you think that’s important? And why do you think it helps you? 

Harley Hall (Guest) (04:09): 

It’s connection. I’ve always been a people’s person. I’ve got to be around people and that. So when it’s real quiet, that’s when I feel like I struggle or negative thoughts and stuff come. And that being active and doing things could be fishing along the river or anything like that. And yeah, being present. 

Rosie Schellen (Host) (04:24): 

Do you think it’s a shared understanding? 

Harley Hall (Guest) (04:26): 

Yeah, definitely shared understanding because when we yarn as fathers, I know that a lot of fathers that my brothers and cousins and friends and our cultural group, everyone has gone through a similar story. So we can relate and we’re all men and we’ve all been, I guess, judged from the system and from people and struggling. And it’s like we’re going through it together. I’ve got close brother boys that have been through this in the last 15 years and still having to go through this and trying to fight for a voice. And for me, my kids are younger and me having to fight in the last five years, going through the same thing, so we can definitely connect and support each other around our struggles and our traumas and what we’ve been going through. 

Rosie Schellen (Host) (05:01): 

Do you want to just maybe briefly talk about the inability, like the total frustration, but then what do you do? What are the things you do to get out of that frustration? Because it’d be easy to go smash stuff up. You know what I mean? 

Harley Hall (Guest) (05:15): 

With what’s been put upon me and my struggle, fighting for children and stuff, yeah, it is easy to go smash things and get locked up and that sort of stuff. But you have to work harder to beat them at their own game, man. Don’t lose yourself and the person that you are because these struggles and the weight of others, because it’s on them. It’s a reflection of them, not you. So it’s about remaining that strong person who you are and not falling to what they want, really. 

Rosie Schellen (Host) (05:38): 

What are some of the tips you might have for some dads that might be simple, things about connecting to their kids? What would your words of wisdom be to another dad? What would you say to your brothers? 

Harley Hall (Guest) (05:48): 

My biggest thing I would say, trust the process. Don’t lose hope. Stay strong. It’ll all work out in the end. I believe good beats evil, and still stay true to yourself. Stay strong. Keep doing the things that make you happy. There’s got to be a light at the end of the tunnel, but do it for your kids. They’re the most important thing to us. So that’s the only thing that keeps me going is my children. And I don’t want them to see me turn into a broken man, and want to show them that nothing can break me. Nothing can break us. So it’s about just being strong for them. 

Rosie Schellen (Host) (06:18): 

When there was a struggle as a dad, when you were with the kids and how you had to think, what did you do that broke away from falling into being like your dad? Do you have a scenario you could share with us? 

Harley Hall (Guest) (06:29): 

It could happen like five times in a day. Being a father and you learn, like I learned all these strategies and being a counsellor and being around psychiatrists, psychologists, all these strategies that help and putting it into parenting, being a parent. I start off with all these strategies and talking and yarning and trying to be nice and encouraging and getting them to, could be doing anything, but it could be like five times a day that I feel like it’s a cycle. So sometimes I’ll lose it and I’m like, “Hurry up and grab your stuff.” And raise my voice. And then I’m like, oh, bring yourself back around and then start again. So that could happen like 10 times a day, I would say. But it’s just about staying on track. 

(07:04): 

Life isn’t easy in general. So it’s about, don’t ever forget what you’re working towards and to be that better person, that better father. And we all fall off the wagon, I think. We get frustrated because that’s what life is. But it’s just about remaining strong and pull yourself back, take a deep breath, walk outside, whatever helps, and take a minute and just recoup and keep going. 

Rosie Schellen (Host) (07:22): 

Did you share a story or an example of when you actually went mad? 

Harley Hall (Guest) (07:26): 

One of the times when I was thinking about our vision was to get out on the boat. I was telling them the buildup all weekend, all week and saying, “I’m going to take you to an island. I’m going to take you on an island.” And they’re, “Oh, wow, dad, we’re going to an island?” So the buildup and all that, but trying to get the boat ready and trying to get them ready and make sure you’ve got everything ready. And in the morning it was stressful. And then going out and taking them, but seeing their faces and their smiles of seeing a dolphin out in the wild or seeing dolphins and then just seeing them smile and so happy and, “Wow, dad.” And then we go to an island and then I pulled up and I jumped off. I had my spear gun for safety and had my goggles and that sort of stuff. 

(07:59): 

And I jumped in the water and they had their stuff. First time they went snorkeling, they’ve never been snorkeling before. And I had my Solara, my oldest daughter and my son, and they jumped in the water. At first I was a bit scared. I’m in the water. I’m telling them, “Yeah, it’s all right. It’s safe. Dad’s here.” And they jump off the boat. And then straight away they just clinged onto me, right? And I’m just like, I couldn’t breathe sort of thing. And I’m just like, “No, relax. It’s all right. This is fun. This is fun. You’re safe.” And assuring them that they’re safe. And from that, we just swam in because it was just getting shallow, but it was a little bit deep for them. But yeah, I took them straight to the shallows and straight away they cling to me and we’re swimming. 

(08:30): 

And I remember seeing, there’s a dead crab there. And so I swam over with them and they were touching this dead crab and, “Whoa, dad.” And just introducing them to the world that I love, the ocean. And from that I was cruising along and I knew this spot for the Wardang island there. And in this one corner, there’s like abundance of fish, man. There’s like thousands of fish, all different species. And it’s like, you wouldn’t believe it until you see it. And yeah, I wanted to take them to visualise that and see that. So as we’re swimming over there to it and I could just see them getting so happy and they’re screaming underwater like, “Whoa,” looking at all the different fish and that sort of stuff. And I had my spear gun with me just for safety. And just as we’re swimming, they were both holding onto me and one on each shoulder and I’d seen this big butterfish and it come from nowhere and I shot it. 

(09:10): 

And they were underwater. And it was my favourite moment, I reckon, because they always see me bringing in fish and that sort of stuff. So me spearing this big fish and them underwater, they watch me do it. And this fish is kicking around and I’m just like, “Get off the spear.” And they’re like, “Whoa, dad.” And yeah, that was one of my favourite moments. But that day there, being able to take them out in the boat and stuff, and it’s one of my favourite memories that I’ve ever done with my children and us going back home, and I know they’ll remember that forever. They would’ve told that story thousands of times to their friends and family, and we had the best time ever. But the buildup of getting the boat ready and that sort of stuff, it could be being stressed out in the morning to being out there and after and all the memories and something that’s going to be with us forever, all of us. 

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Rosie Schellen (Host) (10:16): 

That’s not an isolated story though. So you can talk about how that then connects to a whole history. Sitting down with the kids on the lounge watching Finding Nemo. There’s been lots of things that contribute to that big story about getting out into the ocean. And I remember you sitting down watching Finding Nemo many of times. 

Harley Hall (Guest) (10:35): 

I could tell you that I watched Finding Nemo probably about 10 times in the last six weeks. I still watch it and I’ve watched it millions and millions and millions of times. But before I even had children, I always loved cartoons. And that was like my safe space. When I’m feeling sick or something, I’ll just lay back and watch cartoons. And Finding Nemo has been my favourite movie forever. And so having kids, that was the easy bit too because having to watch cartoons and stuff like that with the kids, and I enjoyed it. So went from that to me taking them to the cinemas to watch cartoons because we all enjoy it together. But Finding Nemo in the ocean, and they’ve always had a connection with the ocean. I love collecting shells and walk along the beach. And I guess from watching all them deadly movies, like Finding Nemo, Finding Dory and Moana. 

(11:13): 

And Moana literally reminds me of Solara, my oldest daughter, and her connection that she’s had with the beach. I’ve always used to sing the song to her << Moana, make way, make way >> And I always used to say, << Solara, it’s time you knew the river of Marangoon because this is our home place here >> So I guess it’s something that we’ve always loved and it’s something that brings us together. And being here at Marangoon is something that I’ve always loved. And I’ve been generations passed down from my family to me growing up here and planting these trees, and helping with the grass, and helping build this tropical oasis and paradise. And my children, they always wanted… Since they was little, and they couldn’t even really talk, I think about my son, him sitting there saying [foreign language 00:11:53]. He couldn’t even say Marangoon but he’s just real happy and this is their safe place. 

(11:57): 

And we’ve always been around it, always been around connection, that country and that sort of stuff. And that’s something that they’ve always loved. And I think that they, a little bit, would’ve been learning that off of me, and it’s something that they fell in love with. And that’s something that we always go out and enjoy together to this day. 

Rosie Schellen (Host) (12:12): 

You always talk about that for your kids. It’s important for you to do these things because you’re building their memory. Can you explain that? 

Harley Hall (Guest) (12:19): 

My biggest thing in life is creating memories. And that’s something that’s more important than anything in life. That’s something that will stay with them forever. And I think about all the memories of being down here with my family and my uncles and teaching us how to hunt and survive. And me passing that on to my children is creating that in their memories. And if you could yarn to them right now, they can say, “Yeah, dad taught us how to camp, hunt, fish.” My son knows how to scale and gut fish and he did that at the age of seven and that sort of stuff. And they always like to cook. So they always sat back and cook. Could be pizzas and that sort of stuff or to cook a fish in the fire or kangaroo tails and that sort of stuff. 

(12:53): 

But they see creating memories. So they see me hunt. So they might see me hunt the kangaroo, to skinning the kangaroo, to gut in the kangaroo, to cooking the kangaroo, to feeding all the family. I guess creating memories is the biggest thing because that’s something that will stay with them forever. Won’t be here forever, but their memories will. So you want their memories that… It’s always positive. I live a positive life now. I think for me, I was lucky enough to do narrative therapy training and stuff. And that really opened up my mind and I believe made me a positive person. And I live for positive. So I feel like things like, what is it? Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil? I really believe in that. And I really believe that it all feeds off of energy. So if you don’t give it energy, so that’s like being positive, keeping hope, all that sort of stuff is holding your strength. You’re not thinking negative and falling to any hole, really. 

Rosie Schellen (Host) (13:38): 

That is so beautiful. 

Harley Hall (Guest) (13:40): 

And I think of that spiritually too, you know what I mean? So spiritually, yeah, I think because I never get scared because I’m not always around it. I can go anywhere. I know my family’s always with me and positive, my nana’s and all that, all looking down over us. And it’s easy to break and fall apart. But you have to work twice as hard to stay strong and be positive. But yeah, I think it’s more rewarding in the end. 

Rosie Schellen (Host) (14:01): 

What do you say to yourself in your mind when you’re doing that? Is it self-talk? Is it what’s going through your head when you say it? 

Harley Hall (Guest) (14:08): 

It’s all for my kids and my family. Family, my kids, are my everything. But it’s not about me, it’s about my family and my kids. So yeah, I guess that’s what keeps me going. 

Rosie Schellen (Host) (14:16): 

So how do you do that? How do you share or practice culture with each other? What are the things you actually do? 

Harley Hall (Guest) (14:23): 

My family always been connected to the river and could be anywhere in the country. We go camping, hunting, fishing, sitting around the fire. The fire’s a big part of, like I said, therapy, sitting around the fire. And with my family, just sitting around a fire, we’re getting our therapy and we’re getting our strength. It’s something that you can just get lost in, like the fire. And for me, my kids always been outdoor kids because that’s something that we’ve grown up with and they love being out on country. So it could be just walking along the river or walking along the beach or they love walking along the beach and picking up shells and collecting shells and stuff like that. So I’ve always been lucky enough to being connected to culture and to be able to do that. 

(14:56): 

But for someone that might not be so connected, it’s about finding out your children’s, what they like to do and that sort of stuff. And it could be just going to the park or just being present with them, doing something that they like doing and just having them yarns and stuff and just getting around them. Because everyone’s different and they like different things. Can only speak on what my family does and what my children like. But yeah, it could be small as just going for a walk somewhere or sitting in their safe place, could be. They might just like being indoors and that sort of thing too, but I guess just finding out what they like and trying to weave your way in to be in their safe place. 

Rosie Schellen (Host) (15:30): 

You’ve got three completely different children. So what are the things that you would do for your children that are different for each child? Like what do you do to connect with each of them? 

Harley Hall (Guest) (15:42): 

Yeah. So Calira, she’s always got to be around me. She’s clingy. She loves being around, it could be just watching TV or doing something. She’s just always got to be around, like cuddling into you and she’s real close like that. And my son, he’s a bit different. He’s not so clingy and he’s sort of a bit quiet and does his own thing and he’s more of a thinker. And Solara, when I think about my oldest, she’s out there and she’s not ashamed. She’ll make friends with anyone. And it’s funny because we go to the park and she’ll be sitting with a random family, sitting there having a feed, “Wait, what’s your name?” So little things like that. She’ll just make friends wherever she goes and she’s talked to lots of people. 

(16:14): 

So my son, we was gifted a yabby from my parents and that become the family pet and something that they named it. And they had a strong connection with the yabby. And there was mornings where they would wake up and the yabby’s at the front door and we had a long house too. And it must have got out of the aquarium and made its way to the door. And my son, he’s a straight out, like he’s a country fella and he’d be out and he would just go pick it up and put it back in its tank. And he wasn’t scared. Where my other two kids, they’ll be scared and screaming out, “Dad!” And I’ll have to go do it. He’d do things on his own and he was strong like that. 

Rosie Schellen (Host) (16:44): 

So what have been some of the challenges for you as a dad? 

Harley Hall (Guest) (16:46): 

I guess learning to be a father. And learning… I’ve always had a big heart and a caring person and that sort of thing. But I changed as a person too after I was become a father. I used to be a deep sleeper and just after having children, I’d hear any little noise. Like I would hear my baby make a little noise in their room when they were newborns. I’d be flying up out of my sleep and running in there and making sure they’re all right. And always got to be watching them. You can watch children and that sort of thing, and they might be playing in an area that’s just here and you might be doing something. Like me, I’ve physically got to watch them, what they’re doing that whole time that I’m looking after them and learning how to be a father. 

Rosie Schellen (Host) (17:20): 

Why were you watching him? What brought you to watching him? 

Harley Hall (Guest) (17:23): 

Their safety comes first. And when you’re young and they’ll be picking up things and could be putting in their mouth or they’re learning how to walk and talk and that sort of stuff. So definitely their safety was a big thing for me. With my father, he’s, I don’t know if I can say rough around the edges, but he was pretty straight out. If you did the wrong thing, you get told off for it and that sort of stuff. And I guess I learned some of the ways that I grew up that I wasn’t really, made me, I guess, a strong person, but there’s a hard life at the same time too. So I learned by the way I was treated and I learned from that. And I didn’t want my children sort of going through that same sort of thing too. So just if I did the wrong thing and getting a hiding or something like that. 

(17:56): 

And then for me, the things about like how my father, I felt like he was always strong and always looked after us. And we had feed on the table and that sort of stuff. But around that loving, nurturing sort of stuff, he can only learn from his experiences. So for me, I’m a lover, I’m a hugger. And for me, it’s about being emotionally there. And I’m not afraid to cry and all that sort of stuff. Where the old school sort of stalls is like men don’t cry. But for me, we’re all human. So I guess my lived experiences is I take all the good things that help me and it’s about changing my way of parenting for my children so they don’t have to do the harder ways. 

Rosie Schellen (Host) (18:30): 

I know you’ve had some challenges as a dad. Do you want to tell me a little bit about what’s been the toughest? What’s been the hardest for you? 

Harley Hall (Guest) (18:37): 

Yeah, the toughest for me on the last few years, been fighting for my children in court and yeah, not having a voice through the court system. And I’ve always been a loving, caring father. And I feel like I’ve never done anything wrong, but I feel like I’m just getting dragged through the coals and have to jump all these hurdles because people can make up anything that they want. And you have to try and prove yourself to the court system. My journey, I’ve been fighting. It’s very costly. I’m a worker. So I’ve had to pay thousands and thousands and thousands and it just keeps going. I’m still fighting. This is after five years and still having to go through and prove myself, what sort of father I am when everyone knows what sort of person I am and how I am as a father. But trying to prove it to the court system, like us men, we don’t have voices and that’s been the hardest challenge and I’m still going through it. 

(19:20): 

Sometimes I don’t know how I do it really, but it’s through the toughest times. You have no choice and you really do find your true strengths because you’ve got no choice. For me, it’s about staying strong for my kids and show them that I’m fighting and I’m not going to give up. And yeah, yeah, it’s been a hard road, but it’s all worth it for them. 

Rosie Schellen (Host) (19:37): 

What are the things you do to keep that strength? It’s not something that’s easy and it wouldn’t be easy. What are the things that you do to get your strength? 

Harley Hall (Guest) (19:46): 

So my everyday job is about giving back and sharing culture. And I work with a lot of children that even though, I’m at this point in time, I haven’t seen my children for over two years and fighting through the court system and that sort of stuff. And me just being out there in the community and putting smiles on other children’s faces and showing them culture. And I feel like I’ve found my place of where I’m meant to be in this world. So even though I’m going through my struggles, that’s what fills my cups and give me strength is being able to share and build happiness with children, families, with community altogether. So doing all the community stuff day in, day out is something that’s definitely helped me. I’ve always had my family that say that I’ve got ADHD and this and that, and I’m always on the go. 

(20:24): 

But for me, I’ve got to keep moving because the moment I sit around is when my mind starts thinking, I think overtime and get the negative in. So I’m a positive thinker and it’s something that I’ve learned along my journey. I don’t give negative energy. I just think about the positives and look at the positives through everything in life. And that’s something that helped me. And I learned that from Auntie Les that I worked with for years and it literally changed my way of thinking. And there’s positives in every negative. So for me, it’s just being out there amongst community. I’ve got to be around people and stuff so I don’t sort of isolate myself. And I’ll get out and about, and I’ll do the things that keep me strong and things that I love. Like I love riding motorbikes, camping, hunting, fishing, all that sort of stuff. 

(21:01): 

So I got to make sure that I put in that time too for myself just to get me strong on the inside and that it keeps me going, so by just being around people in amongst community doing positive good things. I’m an artist and I do lots of cultural practices, art workshops and stuff like that. And then you see the goodness and all the things that you got to give. So that’s what gives me strength is people encouraging me and all the good stuff. And there’s kids, no matter where I go, they could be playing footy game and I’ll be watching them on the sideline and then they’ll see that I’m in the crowd and they’ll be screaming out to me from the oval and things like that, that keeps me going. It makes me feel good by helping others. And I’ve always been a caring person that always helped others and that’s what gives me strength and that’s what I’ll continue to do. 

(21:40): 

Children are our future and there’s nothing more important in life. My biggest goals is to have my children out and proud and strong and happy and healthy and live happy, healthy lives. And I want them to be the best people they can possibly be. They learn from me, they look up to me. So for me, it’s about me showing them what a good person is and what a strong, well, me, Ngarrindjeri, Kokatha, Wirangu man. And showing my cultural ways and culture and that has been a big part of my strengths and holding me together. So share that with them and that’ll hold them together and get them proud too. 

Rosie Schellen (Host) (22:09): 

Just want to thank you for joining me today, Harley, and sharing your story with us. This may help other dads that might be going through similar situations. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (22:22): 

Thank you for joining us for today’s episode. If you would like to keep up to date with our latest conversations, we’d love it if you liked and subscribed to our Emerging Minds Families podcast channel. You can also find us on Instagram @emergingmindsau or on Facebook @emergingmindsfamilies. 

Narrator (22:40): 

Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au/families for a wide range of free information and resources to help support child and family mental health. Emerging Minds leads the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health. The National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health and Aged Care under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.