Transcript for
Child-centred practice in child protection – part two  

Arabella Stravolemos (00:00): 

As a practitioner, are you having inviting language model that so then it becomes a comfortability for someone else? Or even just point it out and be like, “Look, I’m noticing you’re like this. To me, that I’m seeing that you’re not comfortable here. Is there something that I can do to make you feel more comfortable?” 

Narrator (00:19): 

Welcome to the Emerging Minds podcast. This podcast is recorded on the unceded lands of the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains. We pay our respects to the traditional custodians and to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, their ancestors and elders past, present, and emerging from the different First Nations across Australia. 

Dr. Carmela Bastian (00:45): 

Hi, everybody. Thank you so much for joining me again for episode two of Child-Centred Practise in Child Protection. My name is Dr. Carmela Bastian. I’m a social worker who has an extensive practise experience in working child protection. As an academic, my work has focused on the child protection practise, working with children in the context of complexity and child-centred practise, I continue to explore and understand what it means to be child-centred in the context of child protection. 

(01:16): 

As part of that, I have joined with Emerging Minds to develop the following double episode podcast. Joining me on this podcast are Arabella, Amy, and Chloe who are experienced practitioners in the field of child protection. Arabella Stravolemos, a dedicated advocate committed to empowering and supporting vulnerable individuals, especially in the field of child protection. She’s a graduate in social work and a member of the Australian Association of Social Workers and also has personal experience as an individual with out-of-home care and has recently become a kinship carer. 

(01:55): 

Dr. Amy Bromley is project and advocacy lead for Child and Family Focus in South Australia. Amy, a social worker who has spent more than a decade specialising in working with children, young people, families and carers. Amy holds social work degrees from South Africa and the United States and a PhD from Flinders University. 

(02:17): 

Also joining me is a social worker and senior manager, Chloe Henderson, who’s working in children’s services at Relationships Australia in South Australia. Chloe has experience in government and not-for-profit sectors, specialising in child protection. Known for her restorative leadership approach and systems thinking mindset, Chloe emphasises emotional intelligence, mindfulness, honesty, humility, and trust building in her work. Chloe acknowledges the cultural foundations of work in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander traditions and is committed to cultural fitness. I began by asking Chloe, what are the most essential and powerful skills that practitioners need to cultivate to build genuine trust and connection, particularly with vulnerable children who have experienced trauma? 

Chloe Henderson (03:09): 

I think the children that we are working with have consistently been let down by systems and adults in their lives. So I think as practitioners we really need to take the stance of you’ve got to follow through on your word and you’ve got to show a young person that you can be trusted. How you do that depends on the unique needs and strengths and interests of that child. But we’ve spoken about dadirri. I think western culture we call something like active listening, but for me it’s deeper than that. It’s heart-based listening, so not just what you’re hearing with the ears, but what you’re seeing and hearing and feeling within your heart, and that sounds corny, but it’s just how you truly connect with a child. 

(03:47): 

When you do that process, share a small piece of yourself, show a child that it’s okay to be vulnerable and do that and highlight their strengths and their resilience and their stories of survival when you hear them because you will hear them if you’re looking and if you’re asking the right questions and just show them that it’s really safe to be seen. 

(04:04): 

I’ve got an example of this that I actually did with a young person many years ago. So you’re imagining you’re walking in, you’re from the Department for Child Protection or somewhere else, and we often just go straight to parents and talk about why we’re here and what we’re going to do and maybe we’ll say hello to the kid or kids, but maybe not. Often we’ll go in and children tell us all the time, “I don’t even know really what you are here for. You are just that lady that comes and talks at the kitchen table with mum and dad.” I think an example of this is when we step into a family’s home, I think honestly quite quickly you should just be naming to that child what you know and why you’re here. 

(04:38): 

So an example of that is, “Hi, I’m Chloe. I’m here to work with your mum and dad and you because I’ve heard there’s a lot of fighting and yelling and hitting going on between dad and mum. This must be so scary for you. You’ve had to call the police a lot of times, that’s so brave, but you are only eight and you shouldn’t have to call the police or feel so scared. So I’m going to be talking with mum and dad today about how we might be able to try and make things better for you, and I’d really like to get to know you when you let me.” 

(05:06): 

So what I’m saying here in to this child in simpler terms is I know something’s happened and it’s not your fault and I’m going to work with your parents, but also you about how we’re going to make this better. It sounds simple, but it is just so often overlooked. We can spend months in a family’s home before we might even get to this with a child if we even do that, and literally, like I’ve said, you see a wave of relief, you can feel it. It’s visceral. They go, “Ah.” 

(05:28): 

And we’ve got so many examples of this where you’ll have a child that shuts themselves in the bedroom when you come, but if you just raise your voice enough that they might be able to hear and speak in a really child-friendly way, maybe make a joke, I can guarantee you they’re quietly listening in that room. And we’ve had many examples where eventually that child emerges and they’ve got a seat at the table and we are family safety mapping and we’re going, “How’s mum and dad gone with this actually?” “Actually, last weekend, mum and dad, what happened.” “Okay, let’s talk about that.” And that’s just that family widening of the circle, brilliant therapeutic work that we actually have to get to with our families. And just one other quote that I want to say here from Richard Rose, I love this quote, but I’m going to read it word for word. 

(06:12): 

“Yes, they’re the danger of retraumatizing children is at its highest during times where there is ongoing risk within the home.” And so the ability of the practitioner and the knowledge they have of the child must be equal to the risk. Yes, we are working in crisis. There might be active violence perpetrators in the home, but so we need to know that child as best as we can and make that equal to the risk. And that’s how you can still maintain and hold that child’s core experience in the context of crisis or danger. And I think that often we often avoid that as practitioners. We go, “Oh, if I open this up, I’m making it more risky for this child, but these kids are living it. They know exactly why you’re there and they’re frustrated that you’re not asking them or talking to them.” 

Dr. Carmela Bastian (06:58): 

Amy described her view on the importance of practise relationship skills with vulnerable children. 

Dr. Amy Bromley (07:05): 

By far the most important skill is relationship skills. Even if someone doesn’t have a lot of knowledge, knowledge you can learn, you can read, you can gain that. But the skills to sit down and talk to a family, talk to children, help them feel safe and comfortable, to have empathy to help them open up, nothing is more important than that. Being able to hold relational continuity with children and families across time by having that approach where you’re very honest but very kind and compassionate and understanding, that’s by far your most powerful change agent. 

Dr. Carmela Bastian (07:38): 

Arabella provide an example of ways that she builds relationships with children in the context of her own work. 

Arabella Stravolemos (07:45): 

I’ll just talk about an example where I recently, I went into a room where a young boy in care was there and he immediately ran and hid behind toys. I could have easily gone up to him and try to move the toys and be like, “Oh, I’m safe,” but I didn’t. I actually just started talking to the other person. I was like, “Oh, did you see Peppa Pig just move?” They’re like, “Oh.” I was like, “Peppa, what are you doing?” Pep. And we will talk about nicknames. I’m like, “Yeah, me and Peppa on nickname basis now.” And then the kid went under a blanket and I was like, “Is that a magic carpet over there? I wonder if it moves like this. Is it trying to say yes or no?” And I was like, “Magic carpet, lift up a little bit if you like this game or that.” 

(08:37): 

And then it would move a little bit, and I’m like, “Oh, it scared me. Didn’t know that they could move like that.” And then magic carpet would come closer to me and I’m like, “No, no, no, magic carpet, stay there.” And then eventually popped out and it was like, “Ah, got to get you.” And I was like, “Oh, please, please. No.” And I really just went goofy. I think it’s really be playful. Tap into your inner child and be the weirdest parts of yourself because that’s where the magic happens and you are going to find yourself what I was going to say is I think a lot of people, practitioners or just people in general do not like discomfort or what could happen if you probe a little bit further. It’s like you’d rather the, “Hey, how are you? I’m good.” Not, “Actually, I don’t know how to manage this afterwards. What do I do next?” It’s like, okay, it’s probably going to get a bit uncomfortable and that could happen, but that’s like worst case scenario. Think about maybe glass half full. What could really work here? 

Dr. Carmela Bastian (09:34): 

Maintaining a child-centred focus when engaging with parents who are also navigating their own trauma histories can be challenging. I asked Amy how she balances empathy for parents with strong advocacy for the child’s needs. 

Dr. Amy Bromley (09:49): 

And this is one of the most challenging areas. I think for me, what matters most is to never separate the two. And that can be hard, particularly when we start looking at even eligibility for services and things like that. You’ve got who is the designated client and things like that, but that’s a very artificial creation that we put onto families. Instead, if we’re thinking about a child, there’s never a child in isolation. There’s a child and someone. And so we need to be thinking, “Well, who is that someone to this child?” Everything that we are doing has to have those relationships as part of our intervention with that child. If we are doing something that’s disconnecting the child from those relationships or we’re not considering those relationships, then we can’t be child-centred because you can’t simply look at the child outside of that context of their family, of their kin, of their community. 

Dr. Carmela Bastian (10:39): 

Chloe commented on the challenges of working with parents in an empathetic yet child-centred way. 

Chloe Henderson (10:45): 

It’s still meaningful to hear as practitioners, to hold a child’s core experience, but it’s even more meaningful and healing long-term. If we can create a therapeutic loop back to parents so they can hold that story and when they’re ready to, they can help a child and by way themselves move through it. It’s totally not easy. I think it’s a compass for us that must guide every conversation is how can I create a loop with that child’s experience back to the parent or parents or family? And I think I’ve definitely seen that when a parent even in the context of their own trauma, can see things through their child’s eyes often for the very first time, it is just the most profound moment of change. We ask parents often without them even realising like I’ve talked about, to imagine, to try and imagine a future state of safety. 

(11:39): 

So it’s about not walking in there and going, “This is what you’ve done wrong,” or “This is my judgement of your parenting and you are abusing your child.” It’s more about what can you imagine a future state of safety might be like for you and your children? And I think Bessel van der Kolk talks about the trauma being stored in our nervous system, so in our bodies, and Aboriginal practises for over 60,000 years have been acknowledging that it’s just the science is caught up and there’s fancy language for it. But I think that’s what I mean when I’m talking about a future state of safety. So sometimes when we’re safety planning with families, we often start in that column of what’s working well, but then what needs to happen? And often that can be what would it feel like for you to feel safe and confident in your caregiving? 

(12:26): 

And I’ve got an example in mind where we were able to sit with a mum. It was almost a mindful meditative engagement with her where it was just close your eyes and we just went with it. It was myself and another practitioner years ago, and it was just close your eyes and imagine what it feels like to just calm your heart is not beating so fast. You are not scared. No one’s coming to get you. You’re feeling joy with your kids. And she just broke down and we grabbed that. That was like, “Okay, this is the moment.” She has just maybe felt safety for the first time ever in an imagined state, but that was really, really real for her. And I think like I’ve said too, I think it’s also about these very orthodox systems where we just try and other the bad parent or the particularly men who use violence, but we do it to moms and other caregivers as well, we other them, we cast them out and go, “No, that behaviour is so bad, you’re broken.” 

(13:19): 

But I think we can learn to walk a more delicate line where we can hold parents, fathers, mothers, caregivers accountable for their harmful behaviours without stripping away their dignity or the essential truth that they’re just struggling to be like, for example, the father you want to be. So we need to express to parents, we value your role as a mother or father. We respect this bond, but your behaviour is harming your child and that’s not okay. We’ve got to do something to put that right. And I think, like you said, it is such hard work, but if we see it in our work, it can be done. We have some beautiful questions that we’ve developed Relationships Australia and some of our programmes that really help to elicit responses from caregivers that one might indicate the potential for real change, but to help really centre that whole healing journey between parents and child concurrently. 

(14:13): 

So some of the questions are how do you think what has happened has impacted your relationship with your child? If you could go back and change anything in the past about what’s happened to your child, what would it be? If you could say sorry to your child for anything that’s happened, what would it be? What do you want your child to feel from you in the future? What would you want your child to get out of you being their mum or dad? And what is one thing you would like to promise your child for the future? And sometimes we get some parents might actually write a letter to their baby and then we actually get them to read that letter to the baby, which can feel strange, but it’s just a powerful moment of connection. 

Dr. Carmela Bastian (14:49): 

I asked Arabella to describe changes she would recommend to practitioners to become more patient and empathetic with parents and families. 

Arabella Stravolemos (14:58): 

I’ll say what I’m trying to learn for myself is stop pathologizing and having to find it doesn’t have to fit into a box. And also to within the same is just listen to your intuition, your body. We’ve got so much input these days, expert here, expert here, theory this, theory that. It’s just too much. So as a society, I think we’ve lost our ability to actually listen to our internal judgement and we’re so worried about everything and getting it right, and that’s that perfectionism. 

(15:33): 

So it’s like stop that for a second. Just pause and listen to your body and do this practise alongside the people that you’re working with as well. And ask them to reflect on where they’re at as a practitioner. Are you having inviting language? How are they reflecting that? Maybe model that so then it becomes a comfortability for someone else. Or even just point it out and be like, “Look, I’m noticing you’re like this. To me that I’m seeing that you’re not comfortable here. Is there something that I can do to make you feel more comfortable?” But even in just saying you are closed off, they might go, “Oh, I didn’t realise I’m even doing that. That’s just how I naturally do it.” 

(16:15): 

But then they might relax their body a little bit and then you can invite that to be like, “Okay, let’s have a little moment of resetting here and just move your body a little bit and do a body scan. Take some deep breaths and then we can start again. And that’s okay. I’m here with you. Take it step by step. We don’t have to figure it all out right now, let’s just do what we can.” 

(16:38): 

And then that’s when you start feeling again the emotions. And I think that’s the human aspect that we are missing in Western society and it’s so enforced into us. One way is the right way, but I think there’s such beauty in old practises that we need to start actually acknowledging. It seems like very wah-wah and it’s a woke kind of language, but I’m like, it’s not woke. It’s actually the traditional ways of how we used to be as humans before society and the internet altered our mind, and I’m trying my best to pause and go, “Okay, hold on a second. What kind of person do I want to be here? Especially when I’m working with vulnerable people, what’s my legacy within that?” 

(17:25): 

So reflecting on my own values and what my intentions are, I really try my best and I’m not perfect at all. I’m still learning very much so, but what is purposeful practise and what do I want to leave behind here? And I make a difference by my presence in someone’s life. It doesn’t have to be grand, but I need to understand what that means. So I’m just really of that. And then doing the reflective practise afterwards. 

Dr. Carmela Bastian (17:52): 

Amy provided two key changes that she would recommend in child-centred practise. 

Dr. Amy Bromley (17:58): 

The first thing I would recommend is just spend more time with children. Just spend more time with them and do something that is fun. Do something that is consistent. Provide a sense of routine and structure so that children know that you’re going to be there, you’re going to consistently show up that it’s going to be enjoyable and that you’re going to become someone that they can open up to. And that might take a really long time, but just consistently showing up to be there for them. The second thing I would say is always hold in mind that every other adult you’re working with that’s important to this child was a child themselves. And you want to establish the type of relationship with those adults that you wish they had when they were younger and they were children and you hope that they can offer to their child. 

(18:43): 

So in being child-centred, it doesn’t just mean dismissing the people who are now adults. It’s also recognising that most of the time they’re often her children who are now in adult bodies. And you can provide that same child-centred focus to everyone in the family. With so many of the children we work with, opening up and talking about their experiences or particularly disclosing things that are harmful or unsafe or risk, they’ve learned that it’s not safe to do that, that it causes bad things to happen, that it might mean they can’t see the people they care about anymore. And so taking the time to actually offer that safe space that children are so often testing you and that you need to, again, show up again and again and again for them, that’s a process and there’s nothing you can do to speed that up except be empathic and consistent. 

Dr. Carmela Bastian (19:34): 

Following on from Amy, Chloe also provided two changes she would like to see as part of child-centred practise. 

Chloe Henderson (19:42): 

Pretty straightforward actually. I think practitioners just need to increase the frequency of their one-to-one contact with children and just sense it out. If you’re not confident, just sense it out with that child, get creative, be silly. Well, who’s the audience? So am I collecting enough people important to that child that I can then share their voice with permission to? And then what’s the influence that child’s voice that you’ve sought? How are you turning that into influence within your practise or intervention with that child? And I think the second one actually is really you need to implement feedback mechanisms where we letting children know how their input has been valued and that really reinforces their sense of agency. We’re actually collecting these voices consistently with children, with permission, and we’re going to analyse that thematically because we are realising that these kids are telling us so much and then we’re changing our practise and we’re getting even better. And so I think get feedback from kids and actually show them where possible, how they’ve had an influence. 

Dr. Carmela Bastian (20:40): 

I asked Arabella about the importance of self-awareness and reflective practise for practitioners who aim to stay genuinely child-centred and trauma-informed. I also asked her about some effective ways to build this self-awareness. 

Arabella Stravolemos (20:56): 

You simply cannot have empathy if you do not have self-awareness because you need to know yourself before you can even begin to understand someone else. If you haven’t sat with your own emotions, then how can you say, “I really understand and I feel you”? Because you don’t, you’re not feeling yet. So you need to sit there and go, “Okay, in that darkest moment, what did I feel there? Where’s the shame that I’m resistant to towards?” And being vulnerable. People know if you’re not being vulnerable and those barriers are, you’re not going to have those breakthrough moments with anyone if you’re not willing to step into that. And it’s a hard ask. 

(21:35): 

It’s not to be done all at once. I think it’s an ongoing process, and that’s where the supervision actually needs to invite that. Too often it’s like best practise compliance, so how can we make sure this is this and this and oh this, ah, stop and just lean into it, design that space to what it needs to be. Yeah, it’s great. Someone has to be mindful for me and have no input of their own in terms of a conversation. Is someone there that is there for me? And I chose them as well. That’s my choice to keep showing up and I’m buying in to that and it’s an investment on my future. 

(22:19): 

So I, like I am such a big advocate for therapy, which is sad because it’s such a negative association in society. There’s something wrong with you if you go to therapy. And I originally felt like that for a really long time. That’s why I was resistant. But once I was like, “Okay, this might actually be helpful, let’s give it a crack.” I was like, “Ooh, I really enjoy this.” But it had to be on my own terms and when I was ready to unpack that. When you have a system intervention that requires you to see a certain person, it’s not authentic. So I guess it’s about how to work within scope. And I do think for practitioners is telling them what you can do and how you can help give them the parameters can actually help a lot because then they can see what work can be done and then through that, then the co-design work can begin. But self-awareness is key. 

Chloe Henderson (23:13): 

I think I go back to that question I mentioned earlier of tell me the worst thing you’ve ever done. We’re asking parents to do that and we’re asking them to trust that with our authority and without knowing us that they are safe to share that with us. And I think we actually have to be a reflective practitioner. I think we need to actually understand that. So parents will sometimes flinch or defend themselves when we put information to them. We can try to do this in the safest way possible, but we have to remember that systems have consistently let them down. So we can’t. We’ve got to be reflective and understanding enough of our own compass of shame, but a parent’s compass of shame to know that this is just a defence mechanism. 

(23:56): 

We cannot label parents as resistant, too aggressive or my personal favourite is they lack insight. I think the truth is when we as practitioners slip into our own shame responses, and if we don’t understand our own relationship with shame, we really risk recreating cycles of judgement and blame and exclusion. But I also think it’s really important to remember that as practitioners, our primary accountability is to the child. 

Dr. Carmela Bastian (24:22): 

Amy described the importance of self-awareness and reflection in practise. 

Dr. Amy Bromley (24:28): 

Self-awareness and reflection is absolutely vital to this work. When we’re thinking about what we’re doing, you yourself are the greatest change agent. You are the tool. You are the intervention, your relationship and the decisions that you are making. And so you can’t only focus outside of yourself, you have to turn that reflection inwards because otherwise you’re not being the best self that you can be and you’re not offering the most that you can. Also, we know that this work has an impact on us, and particularly when we are thinking about children, it can bring up a lot of our own unconscious internal templates of what is right, what is wrong, what family should look like, sometimes even some trauma or relational triggers that we didn’t realise were there. 

(25:14): 

And so again, it’s a type of role where you constantly have to be aware of not just what you know or what you do, but who you are being. And you can only do that through reflection of self and reflection through relationship with others, because that’s the only time that you can actually bring that to the front to think about how you can use that to actually help others. But if you really step back and think about what is most significant in helping a child, and if you answer the question that you’re answering as you yourself, then of course you need to prioritise that space to actually turn inwards and nurture yourself and do that self-reflection.

Dr. Carmela Bastian (25:52): 

That brings us to the end of episode two of Child-Centred Practise in Child Protection. I’m Dr. Carmela Bastian, and I want to sincerely thank our guests, Dr. Amy Bromley, Arabella Stravolemos, and Chloe Henderson, for their insightful and thoughtful answers. It has been great to work with Emerging Minds on this double episode. If you would like to see more resources about practise in child protection or out-of-home care, please visit www.emergingminds.com.au. Thank you all and goodbye. 

Narrator (26:27): 

Visit our website today at emergingminds.com.au to access a range of resources to assist your practise. Brought to you by the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health, led by Emerging Minds, the centre is funded by the Australian government Department of Health, Disability and Ageing under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.