Transcript for
Childhood bullying and mental health – part two
Dr Lesley-Anne Ey (00:00): … if you’re not responding, if you’re not addressing the underlying issues of why a child is engaging in bullying behaviours, it’s not going to be helpful for their long-term development. Also, if you’re not addressing the concerns or the impacts that it’s having on the child who’s experiencing those behaviours, they’re at great risk of actually spiralling down into some deep depression or development of other mental health issues or even physical problems.
Narrator (00:29): Welcome to the Emerging Minds Podcast.
Nicole Rollbusch (00:34): Hi, I’m Nicole Rollbusch. This episode is part two of our two-part series on considerations for working with childhood bullying and mental health. This podcast is part of a suite of resources from Emerging Minds that’s focused on child mental health and bullying. If you’re interested in learning more, these resources can be found on the Emerging Minds website.
For part two of this podcast series, I’m again joined by Dr Lesley-Anne Ey of the University of South Australia. In this second and final episode of our two-part series, we broaden our scope a little to consider contextual factors that can impact on children’s experiences of bullying as well as influence practise. We’ll also discuss some of the factors that can protect children’s mental health outcomes when they experience or engage in bullying behaviour and how practitioners can focus on these to support children.
So, Lesley, thanks for joining me again. One of the things we talked about in part one of this podcast was the impact of labelling children as bullies or victims. Related to that, I wanted to begin by asking you about the common attitudes and myths that can surround childhood bullying.
Dr Lesley-Anne Ey (01:43): I think there’s lots of myths in relation to bullying. There’s adults who feel like that’s part of life. It’s part of growing up, because we do know that developmentally you do have to have arguments, you do have to have fights as part of your social and emotional growth. That’s normal development. But when it’s ongoing like that, it can have far greater impacts than a standard fight, and some adults don’t actually see that. They just see it as a fight.
They see it as an argument. Despite the fact that it’s ongoing, they just think that kids need to toughen up. That’s life that’s going to happen. You need to just deal with it. How are you going to get on in life if you can’t handle that someone’s picked on you? Not everybody’s going to like you. Just get used to it. You’re not going to win the hearts of everybody. This is life, and this is what is going to happen throughout your whole life so just deal with it. There you have some of those dismissive attitudes in relation to bullying.
Nicole Rollbusch (02:41): Yeah. The, it’s just part of life attitude seems really common, even nowadays when we know about the significant impact bullying can have on children’s mental health. How might these sorts of attitudes impact on a child’s experience?
Dr Lesley-Anne Ey (02:56): If we do have adults that have dismissive attitudes and don’t take children’s concerns or experiences seriously, that’s really going to limit that child’s ability and confidence to be able to reach out and seek help, which can be very dangerous in the long run. Also, if there’s other children or young people that observe that, they’re not going to feel confident. So you’re at risk of having a bullying problem sort of expanding if you are not responding to it effectively and appropriately. It’s high risk for the child who’s being exposed or experiencing bullying behaviours, but it’s also high risk to the child that’s engaging in those behaviours because, as I said before, if you’re not responding, if you’re not addressing the underlying issues of why a child is engaging in bullying behaviours, it’s not going to be helpful for their long-term development. Also, if you’re not addressing the concerns or the impacts that it’s having on the child, who’s experiencing those behaviours, they’re at great risk of actually spiralling down into some deep depression or development of other mental health issues or even physical problems.
Nicole Rollbusch (04:11): So it’s really important for those attitudes to be challenged as it sounds like they can really influence a child’s help-seeking behaviour and outcomes. How might these attitudes also impact on practise, and what do practitioners need to remain aware of?
Dr Lesley-Anne Ey (04:25): I think it’s difficult to understand what a child is feeling and experiencing if you have never ever been socially rejected. Conversely, as a child if you had experienced bullying, you might have a more passionate response because it’s raised memories for yourself. So it’s really important that you understand what bullying is, that you understand how you feel about bullying in relation to whether you have an attitude that is a bit dismissive, or if you have experience bullying yourself, whether you might have an overreactive attitude because you can really connect with that child.
It raises unresolved issues that you may have in relation to that and really sort of reflect on how that might influence your responses. I guess you need to remove yourself from the scenario and actually really put the child at the centre and have a look at the child’s context, the impact it’s having on the child, the child’s coping mechanisms or strategies or abilities, and really zone in on trying to work with that child to help that child, whether they need support because they’re engaging in those behaviours or whether they need support because they’re experiencing those behaviours. We need to really zone in and think about this child, this child’s context and what we can do to support that child.
Nicole Rollbusch (05:53): So in considering the child’s context, how important is a child’s family relationships or home environment in influencing their experience of bullying?
Dr Lesley-Anne Ey (06:03): The child’s family and environment are significant in relation to bullying behaviour. If you have a family environment that is aggressive and there’s that constant aggression there, it becomes learned behaviour. It becomes normalised. So a child who’s growing up in that environment is more likely to develop those behaviours because they see it as normal and they don’t know any different. So the family environment is really important in that.
It’s also important in relation to how we respond to that. If we are trying to help reshape the behaviours of a child who is engaging in bullying behaviour, you do need the family on site. If the family see that as normal as well, it’s going to be more difficult to try and reshape those behaviours. For children who are experiencing bullying behaviour, their family and their environment are essential. They need to have strong supportive networks because they’re already dealing with something detrimental, something that’s placing them in a sense of vulnerability. Having a supportive peer group could make the difference between whether a child actually copes with that experiencing bullying or not. If they are isolated within their school environment, for example, they don’t have strong peer connections and they don’t have a supportive family, it’s very highly likely that they’re going to be very heavily impacted and that those impacts are going to be lifelong.
Nicole Rollbusch (07:34): So a child’s relationships at home and their home environment are really influential in shaping their experience of bullying. What might the influence of their friendships or peers be?
Dr Lesley-Anne Ey (07:45): A child or young person’s peer networks can really impact on how they experience bullying. If a child or young person has a really strong social network and they have strong friendships, they have the ability to be able to reflect, to vent, to seek help, to talk about their experiences. In turn, a peer may encourage that child or young person to seek help, which can then go on to prevent impacts and in particular ongoing and lifelong impacts.
Additionally, you’ve got defenders there. If you’ve got a strong peer network, you’ve got defenders. We know that if an incident of aggression is occurring and you’ve got people defending the person who is experiencing or being targeted, if you’ve got others defending that person or that child, it’s more likely that the person who is engaging in those aggressive behaviours will withdraw and walk away. So if they’ve got strong peer networks, it’s really very healthy for them. It’s really beneficial for them because they do have those support networks and also those defence networks and mechanisms.
Nicole Rollbusch (08:56): It’s clear the child’s context is so important: their family, home environment and friendships. While traditionally most funding and interventions around bullying have focused on the education system, there really is a role for health and social services in responding to bullying as well, especially given its impact on child mental health. What should practitioners be thinking about in these contexts?
Dr Lesley-Anne Ey (09:21): I think the funding and the focus on bullying is largely an educative lens because obviously if you can educate kids, if you can intervene early, then children don’t need to see the medical and health field. But ultimately if children are being impacted or need support in reshaping their behaviours, they are going to end up in the health system. So health plays a really important role in the, I guess, the more pointy end areas of bullying.
Every case or incident that you get referred to you as a practitioner relative to bullying needs to be looked on an individual basis. You need to look at the child’s context, you need to look at the severity, you need to look at the impacts, you need to look at the behaviours, you need to look at the child as an individual and also their ecological systems. What is occurring in their space that may be influencing the development of those behaviours or what is occurring that may place them more vulnerable to experiencing those behaviours and work within that context.
So there’s no one-size-fits-all. It all needs to be done within the context of that child. You need to be creative in that to be able to shift or reshape behaviours, you need to work with the child, with the parent and with other important adults that are surrounding that child, which may include teachers or coaches, so that there’s a consistency in messages that are going across all the child’s systems to be able to support them to reshape those behaviours.
Now, this can be challenging because it’s quite difficult to be able to reach all of those systems, but this can be done. It’s not impossible. It can be done through the child, through the child’s parents. It’s about working with the child or the adolescents and explaining that what you’re trying to do is going to be in their best interest and you’re going to be very careful in the way that you respond to their circumstances to lessen their vulnerability, to support them, to try and prevent or eliminate any sort of impact. Include their voice as well. Ask them if they see any challenges with what you’re thinking and planning. Engage them in helping you to plan those responses so that they feel confident, so they’re in agreement with those responses and so that they trust you that you are doing what you can to best support them.
Nicole Rollbusch (11:57): So it sounds like a wider systems or more of a community approach is required. How might practitioners best intervene in these wider systems of a child’s life, in particular family and school in relation to bullying?
Dr Lesley-Anne Ey (12:12): That is a really tricky question. I would recommend when working with a child, it’s important to have the parent engaged, involved when you can. Obviously that’s much easier to do when you’re working with a younger child than it is when you’re working with an adolescent. But I think it’s really important to include the parent in whatever way feasible. Now, that might be inviting them in to chat with them, inviting them in with the child or communicating with them in written form. It’s a really fine line.
The child’s context needs to be considered, and the child’s comfort needs to be considered. If they don’t want their parent in the room with them or they don’t want you to share information with the parent, because obviously you need permission to be able to do that, it’s important that you sort of try and work around that to try to get the parent involved, to try and educate the parent around bullying behaviours. Particularly if it’s a child that’s engaging in bullying behaviours, it’s important to educate the parent so that the messages that you’re trying to give to the child to help them to reshape their behaviour can be supported in their home environment as well.
For practitioners, it’s difficult to be able to reshape the behaviours of parents, for example, because parents are not the client, but you need to put strategies in place to help educate the parents so that they can have a bit more understanding in relation to some of the indicators and impacts and what can be done in the home environment to support their child. Explaining some of the impacts for their child, so if it’s a child who is engaging in those bullying behaviours, parents may not even realise that their child is also going to be at risk of developing mental health issues or struggling later in life relative to building networks, friendships, and ongoing relationships.
It’s also helpful if the practitioner can engage with the school. Now, obviously you’ll need permissions to be able to do that from the child or the child’s parents to be able to engage with the school. But if you can provide strategies and information to teachers or to social workers in the schools, again, you can support the child across multiple environments. So for example, if a child is feeling isolated, is becoming withdrawn and they need to develop friendship groups or strong networks, schools can sort of intervene in that. Now, obviously teachers can’t make children be friends if they’re not going to be friends but they can put strategies in place to broaden that child’s horizon to be able to make friends.
So for example, with group work, you might place a child who’s vulnerable, pair them up with a confident and supportive peer to, I guess, help them to get to know each other on a deeper level. Now, that’s not always going to be successful, but if they do have that knowledge to be able to understand what is happening in the child’s life and what they can do from a school perspective to be able to create environments or scenarios for children to be able to be supported, that’s going to be of benefit.
Nicole Rollbusch (15:40): Yeah. Those wider systems, school and family, are so influential in a child’s life in general, but very much so in their experience of bullying as well. What about intervening at the friendship or peer level? How can practitioners make a difference there in relation to bullying?
Dr Lesley-Anne Ey (15:57): So as, as a practitioner, it’s very difficult to actually reach out to the child’s peers. You don’t have access to the child’s peers so you need to try and think of ways and strategies to work through the child. If the child doesn’t have strong social competence, you need to help them to develop social skills, give them strategies in relation to, I guess, group entry skills, give them strategies to understand how people are interpreting their behaviours so that they can work themselves to try and build stronger peer networks.
If it’s a child who is isolated, a child who may be struggling and experiencing bullying, it’s about helping them to build their confidence, it’s about helping them to see their sense of worth, it’s about helping them to have the confidence to reach out to others, giving them strategies to network themselves, connecting them with others and giving them strategies how to do that. Some children, particularly younger children, might want to be friends with someone because they’re popular rather than actually because of their characteristics. So actually working through with children, what is a good friend? What makes a good friend? What qualities do you have that makes you a good friend? What qualities would you like in a good friend, and how can we make this happen? So I guess it’s working with that child and the child’s the one who’s going to be having to do the bulk of the work. As a practitioner, you can help children sort of work through those elements and identify what they need and how they’re going to get there.
Nicole Rollbusch (17:36): I think one of the important things to note here is that much of this work relies on a child disclosing their experience. However, a large majority of children won’t reach out if they experience a bullying behaviour.
Dr Lesley-Anne Ey (17:50): It’s really difficult for children who are being bullied to reach out. The younger the child is, the more likely they are going to reach out. But the older they get, the more they are sort of self reflecting, wondering what is wrong with them. So reaching out may be an indicator that there’s something wrong with them they don’t want other people to know that they’re experiencing bullying because they don’t feel like other people can help. Others might just withdraw. Others might be too anxious to reach out. Others might be too depressed to reach out. So it is really important that we try to share those messages of how important it is to reach out and seek help if you are experiencing any of these behaviours.
But more importantly, it’s essential that we actually act on their reports if they are reporting or reaching out in a way that’s supportive to them. So if we respond in a way that’s going to escalate their experiences of bullying, that’s not going to be beneficial, and word gets around fairly quickly, particularly in schools. If you mismanage the way you respond to children and young people who are experiencing bullying, which results in them more so bullied, they’re not going to reach out.
So it’s really important that we think through the best strategy for each individual case. So it’s really important, the context of the child, the best strategy to respond to that child or that adolescent, and it’s really important that you do respond. If you ignore it, that’s going to stick with them for the rest of their lives. If they’ve reached out and nothing has happened and they haven’t been supported, that’s sort of reinforcing the messages that don’t bother reaching out.
So it’s super important to respond to those behaviours in the most possible, effective way, including that child or that adolescent in those conversations in relation to how they want you to handle it. What is concerning them? They might be concerned that if you intervene, that that’s going to make the problem escalate. So then you need to brainstorm with the child or with the young person what they think is the best way for them to feel safe and for the intervention to ultimately stop the behaviours of the child or young person who’s actually instigating those behaviours.
It’s always about the child’s voice. It’s always about considering what that child or young person wants and needs to be able to support them because they ultimately know what they want. But they also know their context better than anybody else, and they know the person who might be instigating those behaviours, and they can predict what particular strategies might instigate the escalation of that behaviour. So it’s really important that the child’s voice is heard in developing strategies to respond to this.
Nicole Rollbusch (20:53): So what can practitioners be aware of if they suspect a child’s experiencing or engaging in bullying, but they haven’t explicitly mentioned it?
Dr Lesley-Anne Ey (21:02): It’s really important that you actually are able to pick up on some of their subtleties, some of the cues that they might give that indicate that they’re being bullied. The most common one is if they start talking about their friend who’s experiencing something, but in fact it’s them. Or if they close down if you start talking to them about school or their body language changes. They might be really subtle cues so it’s important that you are attuned to some of those more subtle cues that children might display, and I guess delve into that a little bit more to try and get to the underlying problem and building that very trusting relationship with them.
Children are not going to tell you that they’re experiencing bullying behaviours if they don’t trust you, if you haven’t got a relationship with them. So you might be working with a child that’s showing signs of depression. To be able to get down to what is causing that depression, obviously you need that trusting professional relationship with the child so they feel confident enough to be able to share that with you. But as I said, not all children or young people in particular are going to share that they are experiencing bullying behaviours, so it’s really important to be able to pick up on those more subtle cues.
Nicole Rollbusch (22:22): Practitioners in health and social service settings are so well placed to develop those trusting and safe relationships with children that might invite disclosures of bullying involvement. Now, we’re coming to the end of this episode and we’ve covered a lot of ground, but do you have any final thoughts you’d like to share?
Dr Lesley-Anne Ey (22:43): I think we’ve covered most things, but I’d really like to reiterate that it’s really important that practitioners know what bullying is so that they’re not dismissive or overreactive to bullying. That they label the behaviour, not the child. I think it’s important that they drill down into the child’s context to have a look at what might be influencing those behaviours and provide strategies that support addressing that as well so that we can then reshape the behaviours.
Or for the child who’s experiencing those behaviours, again drilling down into how that’s impacting the child. What strategies can be put in place to prevent negative outcomes for that child. Also, working across the child’s systems so that we have that consistency and most importantly, placing the child’s well-being and the child’s voice at the centre so that they have an understanding of what you’re doing, why you’re doing it and that they can provide insight into their own context relative to some of the ideas that you might have to try and respond. That way you’re more likely to have effective responses.
Nicole Rollbusch (23:53): Yeah. That’s a wonderful summary of the key messages from this podcast. Well, thank you very much, Lesley, for your time and insights. I really enjoyed speaking with you over this two-part series. Childhood bullying is such an important topic, particularly when it comes to children’s mental health outcomes. A big thank you to our listeners for joining us. I hope you’ve taken away as much from this as I have. Please check out the additional resources on bullying on the Emerging Minds website if you’re interested in exploring this topic more. Bye for now.
Narrator (24:24): Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au to access a range of resources to assist your practice. Brought to you by the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health, led by Emerging Minds, the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health is funded by the Australian government Department of Health under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.