Transcript for
Documenting and sharing children’s knowledge to support their mental health

Carolyn Markey (00:01): 

It’s crucial that when I hear knowledge from children that there’s an audience that that can be shared with, and that usually that audience is a loving and caring audience that can build on this knowledge and feed this knowledge back and give other examples of this knowledge that might stretch into the history of the family and might fit with the values that parents want their children to be brought up by. 

Narrator (00:28): 

Welcome to the Emerging Minds podcast. 

Chris Dolman (00:34): 

Hi everyone. My name is Chris Dolman, and today it’s my pleasure to speak with Carolyn Markey. Carolyn is a children and family counsellor in a specialised family violence team with Relationships Australia South Australia. Carolyn’s practise experience includes working with children, young people, individuals, couples, and families who are responding to a range of concerns including children witnessing violence and its many unjust effects. And for many years, she’s also co-facilitated groups for men wanting to address their use of violence, like in parallel to working with children affected by these actions. 

(01:08): 

In this podcast episode, we’ll be focusing on one aspect of Carolyn’s practise, her work in gathering and documenting children’s knowledge about how they’ve got through hard times or knowledge about how they’d like their dads to treat them, and then sharing this with men and other children really with the intention of assisting healing. So welcome to our podcast series, Carolyn. Thanks very much for joining us. 

Carolyn Markey (01:32): 

Thanks, Chris. 

Chris Dolman (01:33): 

In your work with children, you describe how you adopt the view that the children who consult with you carry with them a whole range of knowledges that they draw on in their lives. So can I begin by asking, when you speak of children’s knowledge, what do you mean by that? 

Carolyn Markey (01:52): 

Okay. So it might not seem like such a complex question, and I suppose it’s pretty straightforward, but the point is that rarely is children’s knowledge brought forward when we talk to children in a therapeutic context. All kids know stuff. They learn things initially from caregivers, then the broader world, the formal stuff in schools, and so much more sadly in social media, obviously in culture, but in my work, I’m really interested in the things that children have done that help them get through hard times. Of course, children often don’t see what they’ve done as knowledge, and parents might not see it as knowledge either. That’s not a criticism, but that’s a result of cultural messages that we get about children in western culture anyway. Let me just jump to a small example. 

Chris Dolman (02:43): 

Yeah. Sure. Sure. 

Carolyn Markey (02:44): 

So a child might tell me who I first meet, and they might not tell me this in the first session, that when they heard mom and dad or parents that are caring for them, screaming at each other, that they froze or they did nothing and they hid under the bed. So we might be trained into thinking that this kind of behaviour is fear and some sort of response of a nervous system. This is one idea. Okay. There’s been plenty of literature that’s been written about that. In our work as professional helpers, we’re trained to think that the most helpful way for children to heal is to tell them to do certain things, to give them ideas, to give them tips, to provide parents with advice that will help their children heal. This is incredibly important. However, I think we can do more than that for those sorts of tips to be sustained. 

(03:41): 

So what I’m really interested to find out is how hiding under a bed might be a knowledge or a skill that in that moment helped. It’s not just freezing, but it actually could be a skill. So the first step is to spot the skill that the side of trauma might also be a side of resistance and skills and knowledges. That isn’t easy. It’s sort of training your listening for it. And don’t get me wrong, giving parents tips and strategies is enormously important that I think when we’re working with children, what often isn’t asked about because we are not trained to ask it, is what children do in response to really hard and unjust things. 

(04:27): 

So this idea of telling children what to do is a social or a cultural construction. It positions children as, I know most practitioners wouldn’t think this, but it positions us to fill them up with knowledge or to give them some tips. In some cultures I learnt when I was teaching in Central Australia that there’s nations of indigenous people that believe that when a child is born, they’re born all filled up. They have all the knowledge they need. So that really shakes the ground I stand on as a western whitey, and it really gives me pause to think about, “Well, what am I doing if all I’m offering is tips?” 

Chris Dolman (05:08): 

What contribution has that made to your practise even to have your ground shaken like that? 

Carolyn Markey (05:14): 

Well, it really has me reviewing my position in culture and what I might have actually put on people that isn’t culturally appropriate. There’s so much, I don’t know, that’s what it reminds me of. And to take a step back and to be thinking that also, I suppose in my work, that when people walk into the room, it’s not a starting point, that they come with experience, history. They’ve tried so hard. I would imagine that many listeners who are consulting people who’ve experienced sort of trauma would be very familiar with response-based approaches or listening for what people do in the face of injustice, listening for acts of resistance. 

(05:58): 

And you may be familiar with the work of Michael White or Alan Wade. If you’re not, I’d really recommend that you start doing some reading because it’s revolutionised my practise. I suppose what it’s about is that we’re always believing that when we meet with kids or anyone in fact, that they’re not just going to take the trauma. There’s always some sort of response, even if they feel they did nothing, there’ll be some sort of thinking, there’ll be some sort of action or thought that maybe this isn’t fair. But very rarely do we hear that because we don’t ask about it. 

Chris Dolman (06:34): 

And so that thought, even that this isn’t fair, would you regard that as a type of knowledge? 

Carolyn Markey (06:38): 

Absolutely. So this is the starting point and it’s a relief as a worker to feel that people have skills and knowledge. I don’t have to be the one to fill them up. It makes the work joyful, it makes the work hopeful. It provides children with looks of astonishment when they realise that they’ve actually done something when initially they thought that they could do nothing. And this doesn’t mean that the violence stops or that there’s happy ever after, but they’ve actually acted rather than just being positioned as just the recipients of horrendous injustice. 

Chris Dolman (07:16): 

So for children to see what they’ve done, to have it become more apparent to them that they’ve responded in some way, I guess is quite a different take on it for them than being told or conveyed to them that this is a flight response that they’ve made. 

Carolyn Markey (07:31): 

Yeah, yeah. And once again, I don’t think it’s unhelpful for the language of fight or flight, but it doesn’t bring forward really specific particular everyday experiences that might be going on in a child’s mind or body that actually are helping them to get through something really hard. 

Chris Dolman (07:51): 

I see. So those terms can obscure that. It just gets summarised by that rather than the particulars of what the child has done, the action they’ve taken. 

Carolyn Markey (08:01): 

Children have said to me, “I froze.” I know I couldn’t help it. And when I ask them this language of neurobiology, it’s not unhelpful. But when I ask kids, “Oh, what do you mean by froze?” They look at me oddly as if I’m the dumbest therapist in the world, but they don’t really know. “Well, I couldn’t move.” “Okay, so while you weren’t moving, did you think of anything?” And then an answer will come, which might seem to be a bit of a contradiction because they think nothing’s happening. It could risk positioning them as passive. So it’s a huge addition to the work that really makes this work in such unjust places, a joyful place because children start to remember things that they did, and so different pathways in their minds are being created. It’s not just what was done to them. 

Chris Dolman (08:51): 

Thanks, Carolyn. Because sometimes, I guess because of what they’ve been through, children, as you’ve indicated, would not regard themselves as being knowledgeable, as kind of knowing things. They might have even come to think of themselves, see themselves as dumb, as damaged, as unable to make friends, as a loser, whatever. I think you’ve begun to speak about this, but what practises do you draw on in your work with children that positions them as knowledgeable? Is it those kind of questions or some other things you do? How do you convey this view to them? 

Carolyn Markey (09:25): 

Children often don’t even want to come to counselling because they feel that they’re losers or they’re not worthy of anything really sometimes. And parents come in sometimes just guilt-ridden, but full of hope and love for their child. I suppose how they know, how I don’t convince them that it’s knowledge. I think it’s about the circulation of knowledge, that we don’t know in isolation of others, and we don’t gain knowledge in isolation. Well, from a westerner point of view. So I think it’s crucial that when I hear knowledge from children that there’s an audience that that can be shared with and that usually that audience is a loving and caring audience that can build on this knowledge and feed this knowledge back and give other examples of this knowledge that might stretch into the history of the family and might fit with the values that parents want their children to be brought up by. 

Chris Dolman (10:26): 

So you said a couple of things there. What really in a way conveys this understanding of them as possessing knowledge, of children as possessing knowledge is creating context for others, supporting other people in their lives to acknowledge this, to say something about this, how they’ve seen it in other times, other places in the young person’s life. Is that right? As well as other histories in the family that this might be connected to? 

Carolyn Markey (10:50): 

Yes. So just to elaborate on this little one that told me that she did nothing, but she hid under the bed. And I said, “Oh, so how did you even think to hide under the bed?” And she said to me, “Well, that’s where I go when I play hide and seek.” And I said, “Well, who do you play that with?” “So this is a social collaboration with my sister.” So we’ve got an audience. “So what do you reckon your sister would have thought of you remembering to hide under your bed?” And they might say, “I don’t know.” So we have to ask again. “If your sister was watching you when that happened and she saw you running under the bed, would she think that that was a good idea or a bad idea or something else?” So we are helping, we are not putting words in this child’s mouth, but we are scaffolding or we are helping them think of themselves through the eyes of others. Preferably loving members in that person’s life. And sure enough, “Yes, yes, she thought it was good.” And then the story continued with these sisters that I met with, that this bed was at her sister’s bedroom. So she actually ran to her sister’s room and hid under her sister’s bed. And there was more audience. There was her, I think it was her toy rabbit. So we can ask about the toy rabbit. 

(12:11): 

So what’s the skill? The skill is you know what to do when scary things happen or something like that. We might be thinking, I’m thinking about that in my mind. How can I not just see this as escaping from violence, but a skill that she has drawn on history, of fun times to hide under the bed. And so there’s a different kind of set of events that are coming together. 

Chris Dolman (12:37): 

Yeah, I really love that story you’ve just described and has me thinking there’s even a couple of skills, a couple of units of knowledge there isn’t there from what we’ve said, the knowledge about where to hide under the bed actually, and also they’re remembering to do that as well. So this quite particular cultivation of children’s knowledge. Can I ask you a bit more about the documentation side of these things? I understand that is an important part of your- 

Carolyn Markey (13:00): 

Absolutely. So not only are other people in children’s lives, vital audiences or toys or pets, but actually their words. Their words being translated into the written word so that it can be read, and through reading it, even new meaning can be made or extended meaning can be made. 

Chris Dolman (13:25): 

So could I ask, how do you go about documenting that? What’s going on in the room when this is happening? 

Carolyn Markey (13:30): 

All right. So maybe a more recent example would be meeting with a young person who’s now about 12. And she was in a situation where she had heard and seen her dad’s violence towards her mother. And she now lives with her dad for a few days a week and with her mom due to family court orders, which is not unusual. She lives actually with her mom for five days and her dad two. And when I first met with her, the main problems were this sense of pressure that she was getting from dad to stay with him more and the kinds of questions that she was up against. Don’t get me wrong, I would never position, it’s not in children’s interests to position one parent having the good way and one parent having the bad way. These people are going to be in this child’s life forever. I’m going to be in their life for five, six hours. So maybe her dad makes it known to her that he wants her to stay more because he misses her. She’s a good big sister to her stepbrother. She helps around the house, but she just sees this as pressure and blackmail actually. 

(14:41): 

So I think about when she says this is pressure. She knows something. She knows what it’s like to not have pressure in a relationship. To understand the concept of pressure, she’s probably had a time with dad when there wasn’t so much pressure. To name it as blackmail, she knows when there’s not another agenda when her parents are asking or something. So I’m thinking about that as I hear this. So the side of a problem is the side of skills and knowledge. So I said to her, “What do you do when dad gives you that sad look?” So asking for action. “Or asks you, why won’t you stay longer?” And she said to me, “I don’t know. I just ignore him.” So what’s the action? Ignoring him. So that would be earlier in my practise I would have just missed that. I wouldn’t have even asked anything about it. I would’ve thought, “Oh yeah, well, that’s a natural thing to do. Just ignore it.” 

Chris Dolman (15:32): 

Now you’re seeing it as an action? 

Carolyn Markey (15:34): 

I see it as an action. Yeah. And I said, “What do you exactly mean ignore it?” And she said, “Well, I might not have dinner at the table or I might even eat in my room because that’s where he usually asks me this stuff.” And so I said to her, okay, so there’s some more actions there. I’m not sure if this is helpful action or not. So I asked her, “What effect does it have, not eating at the dinner table or eating in your room, but this ignoring your dad?” She said, “Well, dad doesn’t like it, but it stops the arguments.” Okay, so there’s a bit more meaning. 

(16:09): 

“Okay, so you go into your room to stop the arguments. Does it work?” And she said, “Yeah, dad’s calmer.” “What else might that do?” “It kind of keeps the peace.” Okay. So I’m thinking, I bet dad doesn’t think that’s why she goes into a room. “And wouldn’t that be important for dad to know that her intentions are not just to be a bloody teenager that’s going into their room and doesn’t want to be with the family and have a good conversation.” But this is also a skill and a knowledge to keep the peace. Okay. And my guess is that keeping the peace, there’s a history of this value in the family that goes back a while. She hasn’t made this up. 

(16:52): 

So rather than me giving her suggestions, what sustains change is if there’s a history of a value that the family’s already been using and we’re just tweaking it a little bit, or we’re just seeing it as a skill and a knowledge and continuing it, but it has more space to exist. So I said to her, “Okay, so taking your dinner into your room, staying silent …” I don’t know. So I’m quite influential. I might say, “These kind of sound like skills that you’re using to keep the peace or to not have arguments.” And I said, “Would your dad know that?” And she said, “No, no, he just thinks I’m going into my cave.” I think, yeah. And I said, “This might’ve been a bit early.” But I said, “I wonder if your dad should know this.” And she stopped and I thought, “No, that’s too soon.” So then I think, “I wonder if other kids should know about this that are in a similar situation to her.” And she jumped on it. 

(17:47): 

I’m quite overt in letting other children know that or proving that some of the issues that I talk with other children about are the ones they’re talking to me about too. And I don’t just say, “Oh yeah, I talked to lots of kids about that.” I have documents from other children that have told me how they’ve got through hard times, how they’ve got through worries or what to say to dad when he puts pressure on or advice to divorced parents. They read these documents before I even start talking and it’s like, “Oh.” 

Chris Dolman (18:22): 

So she jumped at this with some enthusiasm, this idea? 

Carolyn Markey (18:24): 

Yes, she did. Yeah, yeah. 

Chris Dolman (18:24): 

And where did you go from there? 

Carolyn Markey (18:27): 

Well, I just said, I don’t know. I usually use … this might seem a bit weird, but I just wondered if, you don’t have to put your name on it, what would it be like if there was another, and I’m not kidding, there is another person I’m working with that’s about your age that also experiences a bit of pressure from their dad because he wants them to stay longer. I wonder what it would be like when they came next time that they had some ideas from you. I know it would make my job much easier, but I wondered if we could write that together.” Very rarely do kids say, “No, no, I don’t want to help anyone else.” 

Chris Dolman (19:05): 

How come you think she has and others jump at this with enthusiasm? 

Carolyn Markey (19:09): 

Well, it wasn’t as kind of confronting as telling her father to start, but it was also out of an ethic of care. That she wanted to help. And also that there were other children in the same boat as her and that maybe there was someone worse than her. I think she said that. You could see just in her how she was like, “Well, let’s get going. What do we do?” And so the papers there, and I’ve already written down some of her words. And I said, “Okay, so if this was a list of things that you, or instructions for another 12-year-old, what would you say or what would this list be called?” So that’s how we’d start it. 

Chris Dolman (19:47): 

And so you’d previously been writing down her words, capturing something of her knowledge, but then at this point it becomes much more intentional as a document to share with other others. Is that right? 

Carolyn Markey (20:00): 

So as we’re writing this list, well, I know I said to her, “What do you reckon your mom might say that you do to keep the pressure off?” Or “What might your best friend …” I might’ve already found out about other people in her life that are important to her. So I’m asking, rather than me praising her or saying “That’s a great idea.” or “Terrific.” I ask her to evaluate what she’s writing through the eyes of people that she loves and she’s going to be knowing for a lot longer that she’s going to be knowing me. And this is what makes it sustaining to have an audience that is sustaining not just a counsellor that will be there for seven sessions. 

Chris Dolman (20:40): 

And again, this conveys that positioning it as knowledge, I guess as you were saying before, through those inquiries. 

Carolyn Markey (20:46): 

Yeah. So she now has, in her mind, we might be asking, what difference does it make to have read the things that you do? I know she said, we’ve got about five things on the list. And she said, “Oh, I didn’t realise I did so much.” And I’m very careful not to set it up as the truth of what she has to do every time or every time she does it, that it works. Because sometimes her dad might be cross at her because she goes into her room, but just presenting it as something that she’s done, she’s no longer passive. 

Chris Dolman (21:18): 

And it’s not just generating a list of things though, is it? There’s whole other stories connected to each of those things that you’re uncovering, I guess, in the conversation. 

Carolyn Markey (21:27): 

So you’re uncovering precious values. I go into my room to keep the peace. It’s not just going to your room, it’s what the intention behind that action. I keep silent because I don’t want to start an argument or dad will argue with me. I put my headphones on when I’m in the room, so I can’t hear my parents arguing. I mean, I’m sure many practitioners have heard that response and we can ask why they do that and what’s that about, because I love listening to this band or whatever. What is it about music that helps when your parents don’t think that you’re listening in, but you’re tuning out? Why does that help? Because it takes me to another place. Yeah. 

Chris Dolman (22:12): 

So Carolyn, I’m understanding that sometimes these documents are created with the intention of sharing it with others, and sometimes that intention comes about once you’ve got into the conversation and once the document’s been completed, so how do you invite children into the idea that what they share could be of benefit to others and it’s not breaking confidentiality? 

Carolyn Markey (22:34): 

Well, most documents are anonymous or I’ve had some hilarious conversations where children decide on a chosen name. 

Chris Dolman (22:43): 

I was wondering if we could now turn our attention to your work with men who are fathers, and what are some of your broad intentions in sharing documents of children’s knowledge with them? 

Carolyn Markey (22:56): 

The fathers that I meet with who have perpetrated violence or acted in ways that actually might transgress values that they hold, when they also know that their children have been a witness to that violence or might’ve heard it, in my experience, often hold a wounding shame because this is not usually what they’ve intended for their kids. For some men, it can have them turning their back on that what they’ve done has affected their kids. So I might hear, “Well, the kids were at the other end of the house. We’re really careful to argue. They saw it, but they seem fine.” 

Chris Dolman (23:39): 

We’ve spoken a bit about how shame can have men turning away from taking a closer look, having a closer understanding of the effects of what they’ve done on children. So does something about sharing the documents of other children with men help counter that in some way or respond to that? 

Carolyn Markey (23:57): 

So I always tell them that I work with children. Often it’s not their children. And would they be interested to hear, would they be interested in an invitation to hear some ideas from kids rather than just me lecturing? And if they’re saying yes, I then might offer a list or a document that is particularly relevant to that situation if I’ve got one, and I might speak at first. So for example, I might say, “Oh, well, in the work I do with kids, I might just get them to start to tell me about stuff they’re enjoying like what to do in the holidays so you don’t get bored.” And I might call these lists that kids add to, but I also make lists from kids or about knowledge that how they might dads to be when hard things have happened. 

(24:43): 

And they might share it first with other kids. And then sometimes I’m able to share it with dads. Is that something you might be interested in? When I read it, I’m going to read out what some children told me about you’ve said, for example, that you never see Jake and he’s with his mom all the time, and maybe she’s poisoned his mind against you. And you’ve even asked him, why doesn’t he love you? And you just get nothing back from him. You just get this stonewall face. And I’ve got this happen to have this document about, from another child that says what the silence says. So then I might share that. And I might even say, I might talk about the talking, which is I think a lovely skill that I’ve learned from Alan Jenkins. And as you listen to this, I don’t want you to see it as the truth or this is what you have to do, but just maybe listen. Can you just listen to what sounds familiar? 

(25:47): 

And if you notice that, “Oh, I don’t know, it’s just too hard to hear.” What would you do to keep listening? And that’s might be all I say. And I think those sorts of phrases have really helped men to really take what other children are suggesting to heart. And if this child who’s taken the time to write this stuff had a message back to them from you, “What would you say?” 

Chris Dolman (26:15): 

You ask them potentially to send a message back. Yeah. 

Carolyn Markey (26:19): 

And I’ve done that in a group setting and in individual settings. And it might just be a verbal, “God, how did that kid know that?” Or “Yeah, that was great.” And then it’s my job to be able to feed that information back to that child because that’s about letting a child know that what they’ve shared is not for nothing, and it might’ve made a difference in another dad’s life, which means it makes a difference in women and children’s lives. 

Chris Dolman (26:48): 

So when you share children’s knowledge via the document to the man as you’ve just described, they take that in, how does that support your work with them? 

Carolyn Markey (26:57): 

Well, I think it has them then thinking about their own context and what their children might, or the thinking that their kids might be doing or the things that they didn’t even know about. 

Chris Dolman (27:08): 

So the questions you ask them, what stood out to you about what I’ve just said, what? 

Carolyn Markey (27:12): 

What might it remind you of maybe in your own life as a kid? What do you reckon it took for this child to write this down? Why do you think they think it’s important that dads know about this? Why is it important for them? These are very significant questions that are often never asked. And I think it was when I just asked what stood out, this dad said, oh, there was a document that was from children about please don’t talk over us. Please don’t talk over us. Just listen without saying anything or maybe just go uh-huh. And he was listening to this from another child. And it reminded him of that absence when he was a kid. And that’s not to denigrate his father, but his dad just did things without explanation and it really, as he said, it traumatised him and he didn’t want to repeat that. So he thought it was pretty amazing that kids knew that what was helpful was just to listen to kids, not to talk over them or whatever. 

Chris Dolman (28:17): 

Are there ways you also seek to understand the implications for the man of hearing these things like what difference it makes to him in some way? 

Carolyn Markey (28:28): 

Well, that’s the nub of it, isn’t it? We’re hoping that this might shape men to act more in accordance with values that they have. So wanting to be able to talk to their kids freely, and if they realise that asking their child, “Why don’t you love me?” is not helping their child to talk freely or telling their child that their mom is brainwashing them, that’s a pretty obvious one. But there are more subtle things. These realisations come of, “Oh, okay, how could I say that differently?” or “How can I just shut my mouth?” or “How do I know when my kids are starting to trust me again?” 

(29:13): 

I remember a very poignant telling from a grandfather in a men’s group who said to us something like, “I know my grandkids are maybe starting to feel a little bit okay with me because they’re getting cheeky again.” And we said, “Well, what do you mean?” He said, “Oh, well, because they would…” And he had tears in his eyes and he said, “Because they were scared of me.” And then, of course to ask him, “Well, what does that have him wanting to do more of or less of?” So very poignant stories that are always complex. 

Chris Dolman (29:53): 

I’m wondering, what happens to all these documents you collect? I see you’ve got a few there in front of you. 

Carolyn Markey (30:00): 

Well, sometimes I stick them up on the wall before a session starts so that they’re on display. So I’m madly scrambling for ones that I think might be more relevant than others. And they usually get laminated so they don’t get ripped or torn. They’re usually scanned so the child can have a copy and I can keep a copy. Because I’m in different counselling rooms with different kids, I can’t just keep them in one room. But I think also, I know in previous places I’ve worked in some of these documents, my hope would be is that some of these documents can also be displayed in a waiting room, like hopes for children. And in a previous workplace, we had this, and you’d sometimes see people sitting there waiting for their appointment and they’re taking photos of the documents. So I think that that’s probably a good thing and that they’re hopeful document. 

Chris Dolman (30:52): 

Are there particular challenges or other considerations that seem important to mention at this point to put? 

Carolyn Markey (30:59): 

I think hopefully the themes come through is that it’s not about telling when, for example, when I’m sharing a document from a child to a dad, it’s not about doing it too early. Don’t do it in the first session because I don’t think it will be greeted with the openness because shame will be there and it will be a bit like, “Well, you’ve done this.” And the kids know this and don’t do it. So how we scaffold and introduce these documents is really important. 

Chris Dolman (31:27): 

Do you have any further, I guess, words of encouragement for practitioners listening in who might be interested in incorporating this into their work, whose interest you’ve piqued around this? 

Carolyn Markey (31:37): 

I think it’s just a really joyful practise. I think that’s what is so important in this really hard work that we can do, to listen for resistance and responses can be a joyful and important endeavour. And I think it’s joyful for parents to see that happening and for kids, because western culture can really train us into thinking it’s just about solving the problem and helping. Whereas this is a real antidote to that. When we share it in teams, it makes the work lighter and more exciting. 

Chris Dolman (32:15): 

Carolyn, it’s really been lovely to be hearing about this particular aspect of your practise. I know there’s so much more we could be talking about. Yeah. So thank you so much for your generosity in sharing the ideas underpinning this and some really evocative examples as well. 

Carolyn Markey (32:29): 

Thanks, Chris. 

Narrator (32:31): 

Visit our website at emergingminds.com.au to access a range of resources to assist your practise. Brought to you by the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health led by Emerging Minds. The Centre is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health and Aged Care under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.