Transcript for
Looking beyond behaviour – part two

Narrator (00:02): 

Welcome to the Emerging Minds Families Podcast. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (00:05): 

Hi, I’m Alicia Ranford and you’re listening to an Emerging Minds Families podcast. Before we start today’s episode, we would like to pay respect to the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains. We also pay respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, their ancestors and elders past, present and emerging from the different First Nations across Australia.  

Welcome back to the second part of our conversation with Dr. Billy Garvey where we’ve been talking about those big challenging behaviours that parents face on a seemingly regular basis. 

(00:44): 

Today we’re going to pick things up, thinking about our younger children and how we can make boundary setting a partnership with them. 

Billy Garvey (Guest) (00:52): 

Yeah, it’s a really good question. I like how you phrased it and my 2-year-old, for example, can be really cheeky and he’s a little boy. He’s behind in his language a bit, so his ability to communicate his needs are a bit difficult, because he’s showing us through body language and facial expressions and he’s actual what he’s doing in the world as opposed to what he’s saying. But one important thing that I do with him and my daughter as well actually is I just go towards him when he’s struggling. I make sure that I don’t shut him out, that I don’t punish him within the relationship for when he’s doing something I don’t want him to be doing. And so, that togetherness is about that. 

(01:30): 

For example, even little things, it can be helpful where he’s just throwing food at the meal time, throwing water around in the bath, doing things to know that he’ll get a rise in a reaction out of his sister. I go towards him and then I direct him towards a similar behaviour, understanding he’s probably got a need in interaction or moving his body or a sensory exponent or whatever, but I direct him towards something that’s better in terms of less destructive to the environment and the way that he’s existing within it, such as just, let’s play with the water, but let’s not throw it all over the bath. Let’s really enjoy meal time and do something tactile. I’m going to engage with you. 

(02:07): 

But I think at a lot of the time, what we do is we shut kids out. We go, “I’m not going to look at you if you’re going to keep doing that, or you won’t get any treats after dinner if you keep doing that. Or there’ll be no books at bedtime if you keep throwing the water.” But that’s not really doing things together with kids. That’s just, that’s really low level what we call conditioning. That’s conditioning, that’s not actually cognitive development or helping kids learn a skillset. So, that conditioning components that we learned from Skinner like decades ago is just way less effective in behaviour change. And even when it works, it’s often through compliance, not through “I actually succeeded at this properly and understand it now.” 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (02:45): 

And isn’t it amazing to think at the very core is kids actually just want to spend time with us? And when you talk about going towards your child and playing in a way that, who doesn’t love throwing water around in the bathtub? And so, if we can direct it to some slightly more appropriate behaviour, it’s exciting for your child that you want to do something with them. And I remember one of the things I learned a long time ago when my kids were little, I remember reading it somewhere, I can’t remember where now, but it was like if you just stop what you’re doing in those meltdown or more challenging behaviour moments and you spend 10 minutes doing something with your child, your next hour is going to be so much more easy. 

(03:24): 

And it’s so true. It’s so true that your child just wants to connect with you in a way. 

Billy Garvey (Guest) (03:29): 

Definitely. And it’s also like we often unintentionally reinforce those behavioural difficulties in kids, because it’s the only time we go towards them. We’re like, “No, you’re playing well, I’m going to make dinner, I’m going to do the laundry and all that stuff.” And it’s not about, “Oh, well I guess I never do the laundry or make dinner again because I’ve got to be playing with my kid every waking minute.” It’s just about when they’re actually sitting there and drawing or sitting there and doing something. How do I go in and reinforce that and make it an even more positive experience?” And yeah, the bath time is a good example because I get only a little bit of time every day with my kids. 

(04:00): 

I’m gone before they wake up and then I get home with an hour and I’ve got to do meal times and bath times and all that stuff, but I try and make sure there’s joy just for, I’m talking like 10 minutes every day, and that is bath time is often where that happens where they have heaps of fun. I just think it’s probably a bigger picture thing, but there’s so much unnecessary limits on joy and things like that for us. Do you know what I mean? We should give our kids that chance to be silly and having fun if that’s their temperament. But yeah, one of the best things about my day is watching my kids have just a great time in the bath together and sitting there and enjoying that with them. 

(04:39): 

But I have to be careful because then the classic, which happened not that long ago. So, they threw water all over the place and then I said, “Stop doing it.” They kept doing it. I said, “Be careful.” And they were running around after they did it and then they fell over and one of them really hurt themselves and I was like, “I told you so.” You know what I mean? Yeah, they were literally while they were crying, I was like, “I told you so,” which is just not beating myself up about it too much, but I need to reflect and go, “Yeah, cool. There are a few steps that I stuffed up there to get to the point where I’m telling a child who’s crying and physically hurt, I told you so.” 

(05:16): 

And the other thing is really important as well is it can be really hard. I think there’s so much shame out there about just enjoying our kids. Yeah, I recently was talking to someone at a kid’s birthday party and she was like, “Oh, it’s just so amazing.” She’s got a toddler. She’s like, “Ever since this baby’s been born, I’ve noticed that I don’t need to look at my phone. I don’t need to watch anything on TV.” I was like, “Far out. It makes me feel like I’m failing because even with my 5-week-old, I find that I’m struggling to not go to my phone to not want to watch something, to not do those things.” 

(05:51): 

And I think giving ourselves a break for that is really important and saying, “Actually, it’s not about every single time you’re making this rich experience for our kids, it’s about just we try when we can to have the capacity to get down on the ground and just actually enjoy them. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (06:07): 

Yeah. And I love that because we are all human and we’re all trying to pay the bills and keep the house somewhat clean and tidy, so that there’s no bugs running around. And it is, it’s in those moments when you can, isn’t it? We don’t need to beat ourselves up if we don’t get it right a hundred percent of the time. 

Billy Garvey (Guest) (06:24): 

Yeah, definitely. I mean it’s obviously important developmentally that kids see us fail on our own and how we deal with that, but also with them and then how we repair. But yeah, it’s amazing. And that’s one thing that pop culture parenting community has taught me actually all these phenomenal professionals, but predominantly caregivers that are just enjoying their kids and they drop other stuff because of that, and that’s really important. And I think if you’re beating yourself up because you’re worried your kids not having broccoli enough, but you’re actually having moments of joy with them, then you’re doing a phenomenal job. 

(06:59): 

And as long as you’re trying, this is the thing, this is what we know that the evidence shows us is that reflective practice, which is just how am I going as a parent is one of the best things you can do, not a specific type of parenting. And also interestingly, how we feel about ourselves as a parent, and I don’t know how you feel about yourself as a parent, but I am insecure about quite a few components of my life and feel like I fail at it. I think that I work really hard at being a good parent and I’m far from perfect at it, but I reckon I get better at it every month. And so, that actually is a protective factor for my kids in their development. 

(07:36): 

The fact that I think that I’m going okay at it and that I think about it. So, people that are listening to this content just by doing that alone, even if you don’t take any of these strategies, but you just think how they going, that alone is a really beautiful evidence-based thing that you can do about supporting your kids. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (07:53): 

Oh, I couldn’t agree more. And like I said earlier, I’m at a different stage where my kids now, I probably won’t have that many years left with them being in my house. My daughter studies interstate, so she only comes home for holidays and my son’s also studying at uni, so I see him less and less and it’s now that I think, yeah, okay, I did not a bad job at being a parent and that’s okay and not a bad job is pretty good in my eyes. 

Billy Garvey (Guest) (08:19): 

Yeah. And I wonder how you feel about this concept of the goal is that they still come to us and see us as helpful and a positive part of their life beyond needing us for a house or for money or for clothes or for food. I think it’s a really interesting goal and it’s one that I have personal difficulties within my own childhood, but I’ve maybe because of that, it’s such a big priority for me on the other side of the coin as the parent is that how do I make sure that these kids, when they’re adults still see me as someone they want to be a part of their life, I’m positive. I unconditionally love and support them and you earn that now. 

(08:57): 

I think so many times, I don’t have teenagers and so sometimes, people will be like, “Oh, you haven’t had teenagers yet. Just you wait.” I’ve met thousands of teenagers in clinic, so I know a lot of teens and have had a lot of experience with the privilege of journeying with them. And I think a lot of people think I’ll just sit them down one day and be like, “If you ever get stuck as a grown up,” those conversations, they’re so ridiculous that we think that will determine those things. It’s thousands of iterations of testing it, failing at it, succeeding at it, getting better that prove to kids that we actually unconditionally love and support them, and risk taking is the same. 

(09:36): 

Everyone thinks I’ll just have this chat for the first party they go to and say, “Be careful with drugs and alcohol and blah, blah, blah.” But actually, they’ve learned risk all through their years as toddlers, all through the years in primary school with social relationships. Risk taking kicks biologically in adolescence for a reason, but they actually can start learning about it years before that. It’s not this one-off conversation that we put so much pressure on ourselves. Without going into it, the birds and the bees one is a classic where we’re just like, “We’ll just have this one chat.” 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (10:10): 

That’s a whole other podcast. My story about the birds and the bees with both of my children was very different and quite hilarious both times, but that’s a whole other conversation. 

Billy Garvey (Guest) (10:19): 

Yeah, this thing about your childhood as well that you’re either like, “I didn’t get told about it at all, or I got this ridiculous one-off conversation.” 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (10:28): 

My children will tell you that they know way too many details from such an early age because of my profession. I talk to them about everything and sometimes they’re like, “Okay, mum, we got that about seven years ago. Thank you. We’re done.” 

Billy Garvey (Guest) (10:42): 

But I tell you what, you’re doing well if they’re giving you that feedback, and I think that’s what we worry about. We worry the kids blowing up even it’s a sign of bad parenting, but actually it could be a sign that your child feels safe in that environment expressing themselves emotionally, but even a calm kid who can give you feedback like that, it’s a sign of good parenting. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (10:59): 

Yeah. Okay, great. I’ll tick and pat myself on the back for that one. I want to take you back. You talked about the classic, you’re in the shopping line at Coles, the lollipops are there, the big meltdown happens because you don’t want them to have the lolly or whatever it might be. We hear so often about the stigma and shame that a parent feels when a child is having a really big behaviour. And in that moment, no one’s sure about how to handle it and you’re just doing the best you can. What do you say to parents who really feel that deep shame when their kid’s not behaving as society perhaps deems we should in the Coles’ checkout line? 

Billy Garvey (Guest) (11:37): 

Totally, I mean the first step is to say that that is a really valid experience to have and you shouldn’t push it away and be like, “No, that’s wrong. That’s ridiculous to feel like everyone’s watching me” and all that kind of stuff. And it’s the same as the kid that’s blowing up about the lollipop. Before you get anywhere near them, you need to just tap how you are going at the moment. And if you are like, I’m about to explode and I’m going to be the one that’s having a tantrum in this shopping aisle line and people won’t be seeing my kid anymore, they’ll be seeing an adult, then you go, sweet, I just need to do whatever I need to do to get out of this environment, including give the lollipop, say that the iPad won’t be being used on a car trip home, whatever. 

(12:15): 

But if you have the capacity internally to be like, “Actually, I’ve got some threshold here. I’ve got some ability to calm myself first and then go towards the kid,” then that’s the plan. With the shame thing, I think it’s really interesting because this actually happens to me. It happened to me recently at the swimming pool. I was there with Nick who I do pop culture parenting with our local pool with our kids. And if you just watched for a second, you would’ve seen one of my kids take their goggles off and throw them in my face. And when it happened, I was actually conscious that it was pretty busy and I was like, “Oh, people might’ve just seen that.” 

(12:50): 

So, I did have that process, but then I was like, it’s interesting, isn’t it? I think one thing if you do feel like a beautiful thing to think is like, “Oh, I’m going to show just how supportive a parent I am.” You know what I mean? And that’s actually the trick that I used in that moment. I still remember it. I was like, I’m really conscious that everyone has probably just heard my child scream and throw goggles in my face. And I had Nick there with me. He saw it happen, but I just went towards my kid again and I was just like, “I can still say that hurt. I can still express that I’m frustrated and all those things, but going towards her and supporting her is something that I think if people saw that happen, I’d be proud that I was able to do that knowing that I can’t always do that.” 

(13:35): 

I also know why it happened. And that’s the thing is that five minutes before that, my daughter had said to me, “Can I go and ask that boy if he wants to play with me” and just a random boy in the pool? And I was like, “Of course gorgeous, go for it.” And I saw it happen. She swam over and said, “Would you please play with me?” And the boy just said no and swam off, and she just started bawling her eyes out. And so, I supported her through that. But what had happened is her threshold was so low, because of that that she was just so depleted that then when her goggles wouldn’t go on properly, she struck out and she struck out at a safe relationship, which is me. 

(14:10): 

And so, there’s the understanding bit that there’s also the bit before you get to that processing it, assessing it, blah, blah, blah of, man, that is bad. I just had my kid throw goggles in my face in a public space and scream. I feel like people watching me, that feels pretty crap. What can I do? Maybe some people can ignore it. Maybe some people can go, “Oh, I don’t think they care. I think everyone’s so focused on their own stuff.” Or even if you can’t use those strategies, which I can’t go, “Cool, now I’m going to go towards her and people will see me.” 

(14:39): 

And if someone’s like, “I can’t believe he didn’t rip her out of the pool or punish her or say well, the swim’s over,” then I feel a bit for those parents or those people that are watching professionally and personally, because I do get criticised that, and it’s a bit of an overshare, but my partner’s mum recently called me a marshmallow because of how soft aim on my kids and I’m cool with that. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (14:59): 

Yeah, thank you. 

Billy Garvey (Guest) (14:59): 

You know what I mean? If I’m going to fall too far one way, I’m trying to be an authoritative parent, one that holds boundaries, holds the rules, but helps kids understand why and they have a voice. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (15:14): 

And isn’t that a great message that you can actually choose the type of parent you want to be? And I’m with you if someone calls me a marshmallow, like, “I’m okay, thanks. Actually, I’m pretty happy with it.” 

Billy Garvey (Guest) (15:24): 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s interesting, isn’t it that yeah, we have this weird thing that we’re like, “We need to be firm and harsh with kids. That’s what the world’s like.” But it’s like, yeah, exactly. That’s what the world’s like. So, be a harbour from that, be a sanctuary from that that says even as your kids, if everything fails, you will have physically a home here, but you’ll have a safe relationship to come back to. Even if it’s all your fault, you’ve squandered everything, you’ve hurt people, you’ve blown everything up in your life, you will still come to me and I will still be there for you. 

(16:00): 

And as I mentioned, my daughter’s learning that through those experiences where I’m upset and I’m disappointed and all those things when the goggles come flying in my face, but I’m also not my supportive and love of her is not conditional, and I actually prove it in those moments. I don’t prove it in the moments where she’s doing everything I want her to be doing. That’s compliance, that’s conditional. That’s like I love you because you listen to me. I love you because you’re doing what I want you to do, especially if it’s I love you because you’re suppressing your emotional needs. You’re not lashing out, you’re only sharing because you know that I’m going to be angry at you if you don’t, those type of things. 

(16:40): 

It’s a really interesting concept that I think we struggle with a lot is we actually show kids that we unconditionally love and support and in the tough times, not when they’re doing everything really well. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (16:49): 

Mm-hmm. And I think for me too is I’ve been really conscious to say to myself actually not wanting to mould perfect children. I’m just wanting to help create human beings who can go out into the world and succeed in their own way. And like you said, come back to me when they need me. That’s actually my aim. 

Billy Garvey (Guest) (17:09): 

Which is beautiful because you’ve just described circle of security. They leave me and succeed and it’s in their own way or have you said it, what does success look like for them? And the amount of pressure we put on kids to academically succeed is just ridiculous. I failed all through high school and even university for a lot of it, and I got kicked out of high school and that didn’t destroy me because of relationships. And so, what does success look like for this individual kid? And even some amazing educators that work with will say that one of the hardest things about kids in schools is that parents have this idea of who they want their kid to be and it’s not who the kid is. 

(17:47): 

And so, thinking about that, and then you are also talking about the other half of circle security, which is this safe harbour that you’re emotionally, physically, I’m standing on the sidelines cheering for you, but when you fail, you come to me and I help you. And that’s like, it’s such a cool goal to think about how am I setting? And we know social emotional development is the biggest predictor of all those outcomes, not how smart you are, not how much schooling you did. Social emotional development predicts your trajectory through school. So, it’s a really important complex thing to think about. 

(18:21): 

It’s good that we work on handwriting and reading and how good kids are kicking a footy and riding a bike, but actually their social and emotional skill set is way more important. But we don’t sit and practice it. We don’t scaffold it like riding a bike or learning to read those things we do and we put so much money and investment and time and resource into it. But I just wish I could help everyone understand actually this stuff is way more important than how quickly their reading progresses, or how good they’re at kicking a footy. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (18:50): 

Billy, what are some signs that a family might benefit from some professional support? 

Billy Garvey (Guest) (18:55): 

Yeah, it’s not meant to be hard. It’s not meant to be hard for a long time either. I think there can be difficulties, but I think the kid is an individual. The family should be experiencing success most of the time. And I think there’s so much shame about, well, it’s because I’m parenting wrong or even we see a lot in clinic. I don’t want there to be something wrong with my child, so I won’t go and explore an assessment. But I think we skip a lot of the amazing professionals in the community that can be really helpful. Those at the coalface, like the educators, like the maternal and child health nurses with younger kids, people do not realise how much training those guys have done and they’re just at you and I know. 

(19:35): 

But maternal and child health nurses are just phenomenal. And I think we’re really good in the early first year. We know this statistically at going and seeing them. But when we get beyond that first year, we often drop off. But they can be the best people to just go, “I reckon my kid’s struggling a bit socially, this is what I’m seeing.” Or “actually they’re having a lot of emotional difficulties. What do you think?” And they’re really great at thinking about that in the setting of language ability, communication, all that kind of stuff, but also more broadly development. They also are very good at navigating local pathways. The clinic I sit in at a big tertiary public hospital. Our wait list is nearly three years. 

(20:11): 

We know nationally, especially the primary school kids with clinical mental illness, less than half of them will ever see a clinician and the most likely clinician that any of them will see is the most important doctor, the GP, that’s 35% of them. And GPs just aren’t given enough support, credibility, and understanding of how important they are at that port of entry for families to say, I’m finding this really hard and it’s the same. You and I know this as well, communities should be proactively supporting parents, not waiting for them to drown. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (20:44): 

And if you’re finding it hard, like you said, go and talk to your GP as a first point of call, your child mental health nurse. I love that. It shouldn’t be hard for a long period of time. Yeah. 

Billy Garvey (Guest) (20:54): 

Yeah, yeah. And just understanding that it’s not because you’re a bad parent, you’re a good parent if you can go, “Well, this is actually beyond me.” I grew up with a single mum. I don’t know how single parents do it. It’s just I’m very lucky to have an amazing partner that supports me and I still find it hard. And I’ve done 14 and a half years of full-time university in this space, and I still find it hard. But most of the time, I don’t find it hard. And if I was finding it hard most of the time, I would definitely be tapping professionals on the shoulder and saying, “I need help. This is too much. It’s not meant to be this difficult. 

(21:30): 

And I’m worried that this is impacting my own mental health and that of my family and the community should make it even easier for me to do that.” 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (21:37): 

Yeah, that’s a great message. Billy, before we finish up, I’ve just got one more question and it relates to one of your most recent podcasts on pop culture parenting, where you said something that really resonated with me. And you were talking about a number of the wonderful young people that you work with and you were talking about a young person who was suicidal. And you said one of the things you talked to parents about is helping kids to feel safe, loved, and celebrated. And it really struck me that in those really hard moments where parents just do not know what to do, perhaps they’re on a waiting list and they got a 3-year wait ahead of them, or they’ve just got a 2-week wait to get into the GP. 

(22:17): 

To help kids feel safe, loved, and celebrated, it seemed to me like something that everybody could do at home. And I wondered if you could talk to me a bit more about that and actually how you make a child feel safe, loved, and celebrated for anyone who maybe doesn’t know. 

Billy Garvey (Guest) (22:32): 

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, and I had a suicidal teenager this week and that was the same principles that I was going through. And the problem is that kid doesn’t feel safe. And the parent might be like, “Well, he’s safe, but if he doesn’t feel it, the same as love, the same as celebrated. Does the kid feel those things? Does that individual feel those things?” Not do we look around objectively and go, “Well, we let them play on the soccer team. We talk about how good they’re at stuff. I say that I love them.” Every parent out there loves their kids, including those that have had them taken off them because of child protection. 

(23:08): 

And some of the best parents I’ve ever met are the ones that have gone through those systems, because they just have multi-generational trauma. And then you and I are not better parents than them. They are just holding more than you and I are, and they’ve had less support and worse experiences. And the order is really important as well for the safe, loved, and celebrated because you can’t get to loved and definitely not celebrated if you don’t feel safe. Feeling safe in the world is a really important thing for all of us, but especially kids and adverse childhood experiences such as abuse and neglect are really, really common. Abuse, neglect, and household dysfunction, I think it’s nearly 75% of Australians who experienced that in their childhood. 

(23:50): 

And one in five kids, 20% of Australian kids have experienced three or more of those things. And it doesn’t mean that you will then not feel safe. We know the specific things that will help children who’ve experienced that feel safe. And it is things like one adult in my home that protected me. I can speak in my family about my emotions, two non-parental adults that take a genuine interest in me participating in community traditions, being part of the school community. That is how you feel safe, and then you feel loved because people show you that. They show you how much they enjoy your company. They enjoy who you are. 

(24:27): 

As we talked about before, we go to them when they’re struggling, we prove it in the tough times, all of those things. And then the celebrating stuff is that’s the highest order of things, not as we spoke about reading or writing. The highest order of things is, God, we are a stronger family because of you for these specific reasons that are actually genuine. We have quite enthusiasm about the fact that you will start succeeding at school because we’re putting this support in. We celebrate the things that you care about, that you put effort into, and that’s how we build secure self-esteem. That’s how we help kids extend beyond that safety component. 

(25:07): 

Yeah. And we try and do that intrinsically. You should also start celebrating yourself, because you should be really proud of how hard you’ve worked and how far you’ve come. That’s the language, that’s the set. That’s what we’re actually going for in all these kids. And if you can, that’s what I do in clinic more than write a diagnosis, write a script, specific therapy. The biggest intervention that I’ve seen work over thousands and thousands of kids is those three steps. Does the kid feel safe? Do they feel loved? And are they loved? Do they feel loved and are they celebrated? And it’s like, I’ve seen kids turn that no one else has thought would turn. They’ve gone through multiple specialists. 

(25:46): 

They’ve gone through multiple schools. I saw a kid yesterday who was kicked out of school, kicked out of his family, his mum and dad’s house in the setting of severe domestic violence and abuse kicked out of then his grandparents’ house because of how bad his behaviours were. And now he’s with a kinship carer and he’s doing amazing because the kinship carer just, and even speaks about him in this way. A lot of kids I meet in clinic, they’re just understand where it comes from that everything about them is negative in that room. And this kinship carer was just like, “Yeah, he’s in the right place now. He’s with me- 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (26:18): 

That’s fantastic. 

Billy Garvey (Guest) (26:20): 

… and it’ll be fine because we’ll face it together. And he’s awesome. He’s great.” It wasn’t all the stuff he’s stuffing up. It was that. And I was like, “Thank God, because I’d heard about everything that happened with that kid and it was a weight off my shoulders, because I saw how that person was with him in the room, and that’s who I’m aiming to be.” I’m aiming to be that person in that room with that kid with my own kids. As I get the privilege meeting the ones that have done it with the hardest journey, then I, but yeah, I still stuff it up without any of that real adversity in my own experience, but that’s my goal. 

(26:53): 

That’s what I’m going for every single day with the kids I’m meet in clinic and my own kids and a bit too philosophically deep, but with myself – am I as an individual, safe, loved, and celebrated because a lot of us want it when we grew up. It was all conditional. It wasn’t safety, there was no celebration, all that stuff. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (27:09): 

Yeah. That is absolutely wonderful. Billy, thank you so much for joining me today. It has been just fantastic, and I hope we get to do this again soon. 

Billy Garvey (Guest) (27:19): 

Yeah, same. Hopefully it was helpful. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (27:21): 

No, it was fantastic. Thanks so much. 

(27:23): 

Thank you for our listeners. If you would like to keep up to date with our latest conversations, we’d love it if you’d like and subscribe to our Emerging Minds Families podcast channel. You can also find us on Instagram @EmergingMindsAU or on Facebook at Emerging Minds Families. 

Narrator (27:40): 

Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au/families for a wide range of free information and resources to help support child and family mental health. Emerging Minds leads the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health. The Centre is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.