Transcript for
My family is different to yours: Helping children embrace diversity

VO (00:02):

Welcome to the Emerging Minds Families Podcast.

Alicia Ranford (00:05):

Hi, I’m Alicia Ranford and you are listening to an Emerging Minds Families podcast. Before we start today’s episode, we would like to pay respect to the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains. We also pay respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, their ancestors and elders past, present and emerging from the different First Nations across Australia.

(00:33):

Every child comes from a family and each family looks a little different. Some children are raised by single parents, same gender, couples, grandparents, kinship carers, or foster families. These diverse family structures are part of the rich fabric of our communities. Yet some children and young people may not always understand or include peers whose families look a little different from their own psychologist. Rachel Samson joins us to share her insights on how families can support children and young people to really embrace the beauty of difference and encourage empathy, respect, and curiosity rather than judgement . I’m so excited to talk with Rachel about how we can gently guide children to become champions of inclusivity, both in their peer relationships and in the way they see the world.

(01:22):

Welcome back, Rachel. I’m so thrilled you could join us again today.

Rachel Samson (Guest) (01:26):

It’s great to be back.

Alicia Ranford (01:27):

We live in such a beautiful and diverse community. Why is it important for children to learn about different family structures do you think?

Rachel Samson (Guest) (01:36):

Because it reflects our reality. Children develop their ideas about family and family structures very young. So children develop something called schemas, which are these mental frameworks for how the world works, how relationships work, and about themselves and other people. And if we aren’t teaching them about diverse family structures, then it’s easy for them to believe that, especially if they are in a family with traditional two-parent heterosexual couple, that that is right and normal. And children who aren’t exposed to diversity will develop this mental framework that a family is, for example, a mum and a dad and one or two kids or three or however many. And so by talking to them about different families, they get a more accurate idea about the world that we live in, which of course is a world with very diverse families.

Alicia Ranford (02:34):

Absolutely. What role does emotional intelligence play in encouraging inclusivity?

Rachel Samson (Guest) (02:40):

We know that when children have experiences or exposure to diverse families, they have more empathy. And also having more empathy means that children are more likely to be accepting of anyone who’s different or doesn’t fit the norm in any area. Parents play a huge role in supporting children’s emotional intelligence, and so having conversations where there is empathy shown for people who are different can really help develop children’s inclusivity and willingness to engage with people who are different from them and from their family.

Alicia Ranford (03:17):

And what are some signs a child is struggling to perhaps understand or accept difference in others? So they may say

Rachel Samson (Guest) (03:24):

Things like, “That’s weird,” or they might learn, for example, that someone has two dads that they don’t have a mum or that someone lives with their grandma instead of parents. And they might be very confused about it and they might say, “That’s weird.” Or it might be just so foreign to them that they are struggling to fit that into that mental framework that we were talking about because it’s new. Maybe they have had limited exposure to diverse families, or because it’s not something that’s been talked about at home much.

Alicia Ranford (03:58):

What can parents do in that moment to respond to their kids saying things like that.

Rachel Samson (Guest) (04:02):

So using it as a really good indicator of the child’s sense of what a family is or what’s normal, and that’s a clue that more support is needed. And so I think it’s really a good example because it’s showing us that children do encounter the world out there and that differences is real, that that is the world they’re in. If they’re having this experience, they are interacting with people who are different, but they haven’t had the conversations and coaching around that so that when they’ve encountered it seems new and foreign to them. So it’s a good sign I think, to start having those conversations. And there’s a lot of really great resources and different books that talk about different family forms, and so having some of those at home can be really useful. And also pointing out in the community and in the media when there is representation of different families. So that children’s view of what a family is expanding.

Alicia Ranford (04:59):

And I think too great that there are resources because imagining that there’s some parents listening today who might feel uncomfortable with questions perhaps about someone who’s got two parents of the same sex and might not feel comfortable in responding to that. So we’ll make sure that we list some resources in our show notes.

Rachel Samson (Guest) (05:16):

Yeah, there is some brilliant resources on surrogacy, donor conception, kinship care. There’s a whole range of beautiful resources available now.

Alicia Ranford (05:26):

That’s fantastic. How can storybooks and media really support this inclusion?

Rachel Samson (Guest) (05:31):

I was recently watching Paddington Bear, that’s a favourite in our home at the moment, and my mum pointed out that there is a scene where it’s just in the background. There is a same-sex lesbian couple where one is proposing to the other, and I hadn’t actually spotted it because it’s just part of the background, but that’s a really great example of representation. And so when kids are exposed to media that is representative of diverse families, different cultures, then it is becoming normal. If you see it, it exists, it’s normal. And books I think can go a little bit further because they often give us details about someone’s life or talk a little bit more about what it might be like to be in a family where there’s like you said, two dads or a solo mum by choice or someone who’s being raised by their auntie.

(06:24):

So I think it is brilliant because it helps children’s empathy and understanding. We know that books and stories help a child to put themselves in another person’s shoes, and so that’s crucial for developing that emotional intelligence and empathy, which then means that when kids encounter someone from a different background to them, they’re going to have the skills to put themselves in that person’s shoes and hopefully be curious about what it’s like to be in a family that’s different from theirs and to recognise that their family is not the norm, that it’s one form of family and that different families exist.

Alicia Ranford (07:00):

And do you think, when we’re talking about older children, do you think also some of the unfortunate negative stereotypes that are portrayed in the media also present a great opportunity to talk with children about your family belief systems and how we choose to talk about it in our own family?

Rachel Samson (Guest) (07:17):

I think that’s a great point, and I think whilst it would be great if all media is representative and it included diversity, there are still so many examples where that’s not the case. And I think yes, it provides a great opportunity to point out when there is a stereotype or when there’s a lack of inclusion. And oh, isn’t that interesting that in this movie I’ve only seen White actors? Or isn’t it interesting that in this show every family has a mum and a dad, and pointing that out? And especially if there’s harmful messages in there, then certainly that can be a great conversation starter. And I think kids are naturally accepting and they can be so curious. So I think having those families at home is not only great for encouraging this empathy and inclusivity, but it also allows us to check in with where our kids are at. And so their responses when we ask those questions can highlight where they might need some more support or where they’re doing really well.

Alicia Ranford (08:13):

I have a lovely story where one of my children when they were quite young was quite disgruntled because I couldn’t cook Indian food as well as her friend, and I was like, that’s great. I will learn and try to do better. It’s the richness of different cultures, isn’t it, as well as sexuality and it can bring so much to their lives.

Rachel Samson (Guest) (08:33):

Yes. There’s a similar story, I know of a family where a child had a friend at school who had two dads and no mum in the family, and they had come home and said, “Why don’t I have two dads?”

Alicia Ranford (08:46):

I’m missing out.

Rachel Samson (Guest) (08:47):

Yes. Yes.

Alicia Ranford (08:47):

Where Is my dad. Yeah, isn’t that lovely?

Rachel Samson (Guest) (08:50):

Yeah.

Alicia Ranford (08:50):

What language do you think helps foster kindness and curiosity when we are about differences within families, and in fact, our wider community.

Rachel Samson (Guest) (08:59):

Sometimes it’s using appropriate terms. So I think it’s saying if there’s two dads in the family, gay couple, if there is a solo mum by choice, it’s saying that’s a solo mum by choice or a foster parent. So I think using correct terminology, but I also think we want to couch that in this message around difference and diversity when kids are older, and that’s not too big a word for them, but I think the message that everyone’s different families come in all different forms, but they’re all similar in that there’s love or that they live together and looking for the commonalities as well. But I think not shying away from calling things their accurate terms, it’s like anatomically correct body parts and language around that. Now we know that when we avoid using terms, it suggests to our kids that there’s something shameful or wrong about it. So with my niece and nephew, for example, I’ve always pointed out that’s a gay couple, that’s a lesbian. And using those terms everyday terms, it’s just part of life.

Alicia Ranford (10:04):

Yeah, absolutely. How do you think families can best respond to exclusion or perhaps teasing that they see in their kids taking part in?

Rachel Samson (Guest) (10:14):

Sometimes the instinct is to jump in, and especially if we feel embarrassed if that’s not aligned with our family, culture can sometimes there can be an urge, don’t say that, or that’s wrong. You have to include… And to kind of come in punitive, which is very understandable, but it’s often better to cool ourselves down first and then come at it from a place of curiosity. If you are there while it’s happening, then absolutely take charge and step in. If it’s in a or it’s a play date or something can, hey, you need to stop. But if it’s a story about it or if you witnessed it but weren’t there to participating in it, then I think asking what was going on there? What was happening, can you tell me how that happened? And so we get a sense of it from our child’s perspective.

(11:03):

And then we want to turn to how it would’ve felt for the person who was being excluded. So how would that have felt for Johnny that he wanted desperately to play with you all? And Bobby said that he couldn’t, or you said that he couldn’t. How would that have felt for you? What would you like to happen if you were being excluded or bullied? And if it is a case where it’s abuse or bullying or something more extreme, then I think parents have a role of letting teachers know, notifying parents and doing that kind of thing. But if it’s subtler, then I think it’s about having those critical conversations and trying to build our child’s sense of what it would feel like to be in the shoes of the person who’s being excluded. And if it is linked to something like sexuality or gender identity, then that may lead to a conversation about that. And you might come back to, you remember how we talked about gender is expressed in all different ways? Well, Billy has transitioned to a boy and this is what his experience is, this is what he needs in terms of support now. And so it might lead to other conversations as well.

Alicia Ranford (12:06):

And it can be difficult knowing depending on your child’s age and development, how to shape these conversations. What advice would you have for parents there?

Rachel Samson (Guest) (12:15):

Parents are the experts when it comes to knowing where their child is at and what they’re ready for. But I think you can have these conversations very, very early. And I think it can be about pointing out diversity in the community as a starting point. It doesn’t ever have to be big formal conversations. In fact, I advocate for ongoing conversations and just pointing things out in subtle ways. So, oh, isn’t that interesting, Sarah has two mums? Or Isn’t that interesting that Bobby lives with his grandma? Or whatever the case is. Just pointing that out.

(12:49):

And also I think from a young age, we can start to say, before we might be talking about sex and sexuality, we might be saying that there’s two mummies that love each other, or there’s two dads in that home and kids aren’t thinking about sex when they’re sort of very young before we start to have those conversations a little later. And so it is just making that the norm for them that you can live with anyone that anyone can be in your family. And then as kids get a little bit older and they might be curious about reproduction and pregnancy and sexuality, then we would start to add in information about the different ways that babies can be conceived. And so we might start having conversations about surrogacy or donor conception, IVF. If you’re talking about sex, then you can talk about all the different ways that babies are conceived without sex as well.

Alicia Ranford (13:43):

And I always found that the children would very much ask me follow up questions when they were curious about more. If they gave them what I felt was age appropriate information, even if I wasn’t sure, they would follow up with questions if they wanted more information. Sometimes shocking questions, but if you’re a parent and you’re prepared for it, you don’t know the answer. You can always let them know you’ll come back later.

Rachel Samson (Guest) (14:05):

That’s such great advice. And I think a really great guide as well is asking kids, what do you already know? And so that tells us where they’re already at, and that shows where we need to fill in the gaps, but also means that we don’t give information that they’re not ready for and that they’re not asking for. So some parents are very scientific and would love to go into all the details, but if everyone else at school is not at that stage, then that can be tricky as well. So I think asking what do you already know? What do you think? How do you think a baby got there? Or if there’s two dads. Well, how do you think that happened? And they may say, well, they just love each other and that might be enough for now, but it might be, well, how did they without an egg? Or how did they without a woman? And so then you can talk about assisted reproduction.

Alicia Ranford (14:54):

That’s fantastic. And amongst all of this, how can we build empathy in our children and their peer relationships

Rachel Samson (Guest) (15:03):

Comes back again to empathy at home. So there is this really incredible longitudinal research where a university in America followed children all the way into adulthood until they had their own children and they found that they could predict how empathic an adult became based on how empathic their parent was to them when they were in the early toddler years. So the more empathy that we show our kids, the more likely they are to develop that for themselves and show empathy for others. I’ll often say to parents, children don’t learn kindness by being told be kind, they actually learn it by experiencing kindness. And so if we want really empathic kids, we have to empathise with our kids. That’s where it starts.

Alicia Ranford (15:53):

And how does this whole conversation that we’ve had today about diversity and inclusion and building empathy, how does it support children’s mental health?

Rachel Samson (Guest) (16:03):

In so many ways, it shows that the people around us accept people who are different. It shows that everybody is worthy of respect and love, which is what we want our children to experience. And we can’t predict the people that our children are going to be in the later years. So if our child is growing up in a homophobic home or a home that discriminates against certain groups or has no tolerance for diversity, then the child is learning that there’s only a certain way to be and that if you fall outside of that, then you can expect to be rejected or that you might be excluded or that you might be met with disapproval and then that is the foundation of their mental health. Like I said, we are developing these schemas in the very early years of childhood, and that includes what can I expect the world to be like? What can I expect from relationships? And what can I expect from the people who love me?

(17:00):

And so if they’re growing up with family members who have these negative views, hate for certain people, discrimination, then they’re learning that that’s the world and that’s scary. And so I can’t be my whole self. I have to just be what’s accepted or I risk being rejected. And of course you’re going to have anxiety about that. You’re going to experience shame then if you have a diverse gender expression, if you are attracted to the same sex, a whole range of experiences that mean you don’t fall within what’s considered the norm.

Alicia Ranford (17:34):

It’s really important, isn’t it? I like to think that we’ve come a long way in our society, but I know that we’ve still got a way to go. Are there things that give you hope about the way children today are learning to include others?

Rachel Samson (Guest) (17:47):

I recently heard a story from a non-binary parent who was at their child’s school and their child was talking about their parent being non-binary and either a parent or a teacher couldn’t quite grasp it. And a reception student said, “It means, their non-binary.” And I just thought, oh my goodness, that’s incredible. However, the child has come to learn that at that age is just incredible. And it was just matter of fact, no big deal. But I think compared to when I was going through school, there is just so much more representation. We’ve obviously got a huge way to go, but I think that we are becoming a much more accepting and inclusive culture. And I think that kids that are growing up now have access to so much more in terms of resources, media representation, support around community inclusion and diversity. So I think there’s a lot to feel positive about.

Alicia Ranford (18:46):

I couldn’t agree more. I love seeing two teenagers and I love seeing that so many things now are just a non-event, someone’s sexuality or their culture. It’s only to be celebrated, if anything, otherwise it’s a non-event. It doesn’t matter where you came from or the colour of your skin or what gender you identify as. You’re just you, which I think is lovely as we always like to ask, if there was only one or two things you wanted our listeners to take away from our conversation today, what would you want them to remember?

Rachel Samson (Guest) (19:16):

I think focus on empathy at home. Empathising and accepting our children and their experiences helps them to develop empathy for everybody around them as they go through life. And I think doing what we can to celebrate diversity and to find ways to point out diversity in the community and just to remember that our children are observing us all the time. So it’s not just what we say and what we teach, but it’s also how we live.

Alicia Ranford (19:46):

Yeah, that’s wonderful. Thank you, Rachel. Thank you so much for joining us back again in the podcast studio.

Rachel Samson (Guest) (19:51):

My pleasure.

Alicia Ranford (19:51):

As always, it’s great to have you here.

Rachel Samson (Guest) (19:53):

Thanks for having me.

VO (19:55):

Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au/families for a wide range of free information and resources to help support child and family mental health. Emerging Minds leads the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health. The Centre is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Programme.