Transcript for
School refusal and the social media ban: how to support children through change

Narration (00:02):

Welcome to the Emerging Minds Families Podcast.

Nadia Rossi (00:06):

Hi, I’m Nadia Rossi, and you are listening to an Emerging Minds Families podcast. Before we start today’s episode, we would like to pay respect to the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains. We also pay respects to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, their ancestors and elders past, present, and emerging from the different First Nations across Australia. Last episode, we spoke with educator Sara Holman about building positive partnerships between parents and educators to support children’s mental health, well-being, and learning.

(00:45):

While Sara was in the studio, I couldn’t help but ask her about two topics that seemed to be front of mind for families at the moment, school refusal and how families and schools can work together to support children who experience difficulties attending school and the social media ban that has come into effect in Australia and how parents can navigate this big change with the young people in their lives. So I hope you enjoy this conversation with educator, Sara Holman. Sara, I wanted to talk about, it’s quite a big topic, school refusal.

Sara Holman (01:16):

Yes.

Nadia Rossi (01:16):

So it’s a big challenge that parents can experience with their children and I was wondering how can parents and teachers work together when a child or a young person is resisting school?

Sara Holman (01:27):

It is a big issue. School refusal, School Can’t. It is something that not one person can solve, and it is something that cannot be solved by dropping a kid off at the gate and the teacher dragging them in and everything’s fine. It is something that I think both parents and teachers probably need to try really hard to not take personally, because even as a teacher, I hope that every child wants to come to my classroom every day and that might not be the case and it will have nothing to do with me, but I can’t take it personally that they may not find the classroom environment comforting or safe or it’s got nothing to do with that, has something to do with a bigger picture.

(02:01):

It is really tricky. That is definitely one that needs to be dealt with as a team, and a bigger team than a teacher and a parent, I would say. So, for parents to communicate with teachers, because the other thing is you have to let the school know every day while your child’s not there. That is a legal requirement. So once you start hitting a two, three week, your child’s not turning up, the school’s going to start harassing you if you’re not responding because that is the other thing. Parents don’t know what to say, so they just don’t give a reason as to why their child’s at school. That then becomes a truancy issue. We don’t want it to snowball into that.

(02:32):

So certainly letting your child’s educator know, “Hey, I can’t get them to school at the moment. There’s something going on.” Or it might be that they’ve come from another year level, and we knew something was happening the year before, and it wasn’t looking great. There are strategies for that. We have lots of different strategies. There’s not one that works for everybody, obviously, because we wouldn’t have a problem with it, which we do. Like I said, it’s definitely something that we will probably need external agencies to come in and help with their psychologists. It could be an OT. It could be, who knows. It could be a speechie because they’ve got a language problem. We don’t know.

(03:02):

But schools have lots of connections with those external people. It’s a big place full of resources, a school, and ones that we either work well with. I’ve got a few developmental educators and OTs and speechies that I will always recommend because they… I see how well they work with the kids. I see how well they work with the teachers because that’s a really big thing too, keeping the teacher involved in that team. So, definitely letting the school know so we can help with referrals. But also just to know that there are things like re-engaging programmes that we can set up.

(03:35):

Their child doesn’t have to come to school every single day if that’s what they can’t do. Is it they come for a morning? We sit down with the principal when we talk to the principal about what does this look like? Do we need a part-time status? There’s lots of different things when it comes to school refusal that we can look at, but the biggest one is letting the school know it’s happening. Definitely letting the teacher know it’s happening and seeing what we can do to support the family, because it’s a really big deal for the family if they don’t know the actual crux of the problem.

Nadia Rossi (04:01):

And so important for parents to hear what you’ve just said, because I feel like you learn that you are not alone, and it’s not something that you as a parent or a carer or a family solely have to deal with. That there are resources in the school that you can access.

(04:15):

And whether the first step is again, contacting the teacher, and then, if things are not improving, then what other supports can we access? And there’s different levels of it. There’s one whether your child just doesn’t want to get out of the car and go, and then you can do that thing where you throw a kiss to them, and they catch it, or you draw the little heart on their hand-

Sara Holman (04:32):

Yes.

Nadia Rossi (04:32):

… and they can kiss it. And those little strategies that you learn when you’re dropping your kid off to kindy into primary school, and things like that. You start with those. And if there’s improvement, then that’s okay. But if it’s bigger and it’s snowballing, and then you, as a parent, have the anxiety, “Why does my child not want to go to school? I don’t want to talk to anyone about this.” So to know that schools are prepared.

Sara Holman (04:51):

Yes, and that goes back to the importance of letting parents know things early. You can have a child who can be having a full-blown meltdown at home for two hours before they come to school, and they [inaudible 00:05:02] in that door like they’re happy as Larry, and the parent is crying behind them, going, “You would not believe the morning we just had.” And again, I’m like, “Get out of town. They’re sweet as pie.”

Nadia Rossi (05:13):

Yeah.

Sara Holman (05:13):

But we don’t know what happens at home. We don’t know what’s going on. And if we know that, then in four months’ time, when that has got bigger, and now they won’t get out the car, and they’re not walking from the car park, we know this has actually been going on for a little while, so this is not unexpected. This has now got bigger. What more… So initially we can start trying things to help the parent.

(05:36):

Unfortunately, when it’s at home, it’s not a home problem, but we are not there, so we can’t do too much there. But certainly recommending strategies there. But if we have an awareness that it’s been happening, something’s been rising, we know that something’s been there, and we can help go back to the cause of it, perhaps, or look at how we can again engage other people in, because it is teachers and parents alone can’t do it. They can’t solve that problem. We need help from other people.

Nadia Rossi (06:00):

Absolutely.

Sara Holman (06:01):

And creating a bigger team.

Nadia Rossi (06:02):

Yes.

Sara Holman (06:03):

It’s always about that.

Nadia Rossi (06:04):

It’s always about the team. That’s right.

Sara Holman (06:05):

It is.

Nadia Rossi (06:05):

And how important those things that are happening at home that parents know that your child that you may not think is helpful, but actually-

Sara Holman (06:12):

Yes.

Nadia Rossi (06:12):

… is.

Sara Holman (06:12):

It is. Yeah.

Nadia Rossi (06:13):

Yeah.

Sara Holman (06:14):

Because they think they’ve got them to school. So, therefore, “Okay, good. They’re at school. They’re happy, and everything’s great. But why was that happening? What is the cause of that problem?” Because that, I don’t want to use the word normal, that’s not normal to have that meltdown, that anxiety, that distress before they come to school. What’s going on there? Why is that a problem?

(06:31):

And you will find almost all of the external agencies, all of your OT’s, your DE’s, all of those agencies, they will want to be on board as a team, and they will want to, once a term, have a school check-in and Zoom in with you and if they can’t make it to the meeting. Parents don’t realise that. We will work collaboratively with those agencies as well to help. They don’t have to take one child to this person and then come back and report to me what’s happened. I can actually touch base with them as well directly.

Nadia Rossi (07:00):

Thank you for sharing that. Sara, I wanted to talk about the hot topic at the moment, the social media ban, and it’s now in effect in Australia. It is early days, but I just wanted to ask you about what advice you have for parents and educators, and how they can support the young people affected by the ban.

Sara Holman (07:18):

Yeah, it’s interesting. I have a 15-year-old child who’s just lost his access to his cricket reels that he watched.

Nadia Rossi (07:25):

Yes.

Sara Holman (07:25):

… on Instagram. And it’s funny because I [inaudible 00:07:29] Gen X, I’m like, “Oh, I spent all my days playing.” We were not doing that. We’d need to stop saying that to the-

Nadia Rossi (07:33):

Yes.

Sara Holman (07:33):

… kids because that’s not exactly what happened.

Nadia Rossi (07:35):

No, no.

Sara Holman (07:35):

A majority of us were out doing stuff. We didn’t have social media. But it is… for them, it is validating how they feel.

Nadia Rossi (07:42):

Yes.

Sara Holman (07:43):

It is a real thing for them. We didn’t grow up with phones or social media, so we don’t realise that that’s what they know.

(07:50):

That is big to them. That is their world. That is how they communicate. I mean, my son, I said to him, “Oh, just text your mates.” He goes, “I don’t have their numbers.” They don’t share phone numbers. Like, “Why would I have a kid’s phone number?” Because they contact each other on all of the apps.

Nadia Rossi (08:03):

Yeah, sure.

Sara Holman (08:04):

So, even acknowledging things like that, that actually we need to come up with different ways for them to communicate. We do not need to say to them, “Right, you need to go join a sporting club. That’s the only way you’re going to be able to communicate with your mates outside of school.”

(08:15):

That’s not real for a lot of people. Yes, it is an amazing way. And I would hope that if you have the ability to do that, that your kids are doing that because it is so beneficial to have another group of people external to your school group of people, particularly for teenagers.

(08:30):

I think it’s really important that they have another space of friends to go to outside of school. So don’t get me wrong, I do think that’s really important that maybe they are doing that now, but that’s also not a reality for parents. We are busy enough. We’re not going to chuck in extra trips to a sporting-

Nadia Rossi (08:44):

Yes.

Sara Holman (08:44):

… club or [inaudible 00:08:46]-

Nadia Rossi (08:45):

Where else can we pile on to-

Sara Holman (08:46):

That’s right.

Nadia Rossi (08:47):

… our middle of the week.

Sara Holman (08:48):

Or paying for it.

Nadia Rossi (08:48):

Yeah, exactly. It’s cost.

Sara Holman (08:49):

Parents can’t pay for it.

Nadia Rossi (08:50):

Absolutely.

Sara Holman (08:50):

So I think, really, I do think there is a problem with whipping them off and then not giving them something else to do. That’s definitely an issue. But as far as their mental health, we have to validate that that is a big thing to them. That is how they communicate. That’s how they stay involved. Particularly for the older kids. For primary school, not so much a big deal in the sense fives and sixes, year fives and sixes, they do tend to sneak on it even though they shouldn’t. They do.

(09:13):

So they’re managing that as well, but probably not at the same level that teenagers in high schools are managing it. I can imagine the FOMO that they’re all feeling, being very left out of what’s going on in the world of someone who might be 15, like my son, he turns 16 in six months, but then all of his mates are 16, so he can’t be involved in those conversations, which isn’t a big deal. He does see them at cricket. He does have that external option. But the kids who don’t, what are you going to do about that? That’s how they have their friends.

(09:42):

That’s their friendships. That is the reality of today. We might not agree with that being the way friendships should evolve and work and communicate. That is how it is to them. So I think validating their feelings that this has been taken away from them I don’t think it’s a bad thing. Just having a look at what’s recently happened in the news, kids aren’t seeing that pop up at the moment on their reels because even I’m shocked at some of the footage I’m seeing that’s popping up, and that’s just there on news sites for kids to have a look at it. So definitely a good thing.

(10:11):

But I think people are burying their heads in the sand if they think just taking off them is okay and not giving them something else to do, not acknowledging they’re now missing out on conversations that are happening. Could they have another form of communicating? Yes, they could set up a group message chat with their mates. There’s nothing wrong with that or a WhatsApp, but it’s tricky. It is really tricky. And the kids are caught who were on it. So again, sorry, child, for using you as an example, but he came to me and asked me if he could set up a YouTube account the other day, and I was like, “No.”

Nadia Rossi (10:41):

Yes.

Sara Holman (10:41):

“You are not allowed on the stuff.” And I was like, “Just watch it. Why do you need an account?” And he said, “Oh, because the…” Again, it was a cricket reel he wanted to watch was on a Sportsbet account. And I said, “Why are you watching something on Sportsbet?” And he said, because they’ve got a reel on I want to watch.” And I’m like, “Well, you shouldn’t be on a Sportsbet account, but you have to be a subscriber to see that reel.” And I’m like, “That is how they get the kids, and the kids don’t know it.” They don’t realise-

Nadia Rossi (11:04):

Yes.

Sara Holman (11:05):

… you should not be on a Sportsbet YouTube account because they are… regardless of whether or not you think you’re watching adverts for gambling, they are throwing them in there.

Nadia Rossi (11:13):

Yes.

Sara Holman (11:14):

That is why you have to have an account. So I do think it’s a really great thing that they’re not on it. But what’s the flip side to that? What are we doing to help them out with that? I mean, we don’t… part of the reason we don’t want them on is because we don’t want them spending their whole life looking at a phone. But who’s doing anything different with them? Are parents actually enrolling these kids in different events, clubs? No, the kids are walking around summer holidays bored out of their brains.

Nadia Rossi (11:37):

Exactly. Yeah. And it’s such a valid point because I was having conversation… separate podcasts about this as well. It has been taken away, and what are we replacing that time with? Because you’re right. I spent my school holidays in front of the TV sometimes.

Sara Holman (11:50):

Yes. I know. That’s the thing.

Nadia Rossi (11:50):

And so you go-

Sara Holman (11:51):

I think we forget-

Nadia Rossi (11:51):

Yes.

Sara Holman (11:53):

… that we used to come home from school and watch Fresh Prince of Bel-Air at four o’clock. It was TV from then on. But I do acknowledge that it’s less about I think-

Nadia Rossi (12:00):

Yes.

Sara Holman (12:01):

… the activity sense.

Nadia Rossi (12:03):

It’s the safety.

Sara Holman (12:04):

It’s the safety. And I think I am 100% for it. There is nothing in me that thinks anyone should be on it under 16 because they are seeing things that they don’t mean to see, and what they’re exposed to and what they become involved in, but we’ve let them have it. So now, how are we going to help them out? And it is a real thing. It is one thing for me as a parent to say, “Oh, you’ll be fine. Just have your mates over more.”

(12:24):

I have the capability to have his mates over. I have the capability. I’m a teacher. I will have time off now. So, some holidays, I can take him places. There are so many parents who don’t have the ability to do that. So how are they going to help engage their kids in other things? It is something that we do need to acknowledge seriously that it is not all rosy and lovely that they’re not on now. It’s not a fix.

Nadia Rossi (12:44):

And I think going back to our initial conversation, our initial point that you mentioned it is about validating it and validating their experience. And as a parent, sitting down and having a conversation and asking them, “What can we do? Can we set up a play date for a teenager?”

Sara Holman (12:59):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. “Do I need to drop you off somewhere?”

Nadia Rossi (13:02):

Yes.

Sara Holman (13:02):

“Do you need to…”

Nadia Rossi (13:03):

“How can we connect with your friends?” I think it’s an interesting flip as well. It’s like people don’t want youth loitering around, but we’ve got to give them spaces. And so how, I guess if you have a mum’s group or your child is friends, and you are friends with their parents or you can contact their parents, maybe it is about you as a group of parents going, “Let’s get the kids together and can they go to your house or can they all meet at this park or something? Ride their bikes?” I don’t know.

Sara Holman (13:30):

Yeah, yeah.

Nadia Rossi (13:30):

But it’s-

Sara Holman (13:30):

Use your village.

Nadia Rossi (13:31):

Yeah, use your village. And I think it’s a conversation that parents need to have with each other, maybe.

Sara Holman (13:36):

Absolutely. Or do what I’m doing, and I’m now paying my child to do jobs around the house.

Nadia Rossi (13:40):

Great. Done. Win-win.

Sara Holman (13:41):

“I’ve got this to do in the garden. Here’s what you’re going to do instead of being on your phone.”

Nadia Rossi (13:45):

Sara, thank you so much for talking with us today.

Sara Holman (13:48):

Thank you for having me.

Nadia Rossi (13:49):

And thank you to our listeners for joining us. If you would like to keep up to date with our latest conversations, we’d love it if you like and subscribe to our Emerging Minds Families podcast channel. You can also find us on Instagram @emergingmindsau or on Facebook at Emerging Minds Families.

Narration (14:07):

Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au/families for a wide range of free information and resources to help support child and family mental health. Emerging Minds leads the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health. The Centre is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.