Transcript for
Screen-free moments: Practical ways to reconnect

Narrator (00:02): 

Welcome to the Emerging Minds Families Podcast. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (00:06): 

Hi, I’m Nadia Rossi and you’re listening to an Emerging Minds Families podcast. 

(00:10): 

Before we start today’s episode, we would like to pay respect to the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains. We also pay respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, their ancestors, and elders past, present, and emerging from the different First Nations across Australia. 

(00:35): 

In our technology focused world where most of us are working from our phones or find ourselves stuck in a doom scroll from time to time, we have all at some point had that feeling of needing to unplug; put the phone down and find time to reconnect with the people in our lives. Today we are speaking to a couple who are doing just that. 

(00:54): 

Jane and Ian formed Kiama Unplugged, a community-led movement and hosted events in Kiama, New South Wales. They aim to encourage people to reduce their smartphone use and reconnect with each other and the real world through phone-free activities, often partnering with local businesses to do so. These events seek to mitigate the negative impacts of screens, promote face-to-face interactions for all ages and moments for families to reconnect. 

(01:20): 

Welcome Jane and Ian. It is great to speak with you today. 

Jane (Guest) (01:23): 

Thank you. Thank you for having us. 

Ian (Guest) (01:24): 

Thank you very much. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (01:26): 

Jane and Ian, at Emerging Minds, we acknowledge that families come in many forms. So I was wondering if you could start today’s conversation by telling us a bit about who makes up your family. 

Jane (Guest) (01:37): 

Yeah, of course. Well, Ian and I are both from the UK originally, although we met in Australia, and we now live in Kiama. We have two boys. So we have no family in Australia, so it was very important to us to create that village that we all know we need. And so we’ve made great friendships and really built a community around us. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (01:53): 

We often talk about the village idea is kind of getting a bit lost, and so how do you build that village around you? And what a beautiful example of you not having those direct family contacts and actually reaching out to those around you to form your family, and for your boys as well to have those community connections. 

(02:11): 

I was wondering, when did you start thinking about the amount of screen time or technology your family was using? Was that a conversation maybe you were having with friends and other people in your lives, or was it something that you really noticed within your own family? 

Ian (Guest) (02:27): 

It was something that started by myself about two years ago, and I was wondering why my brain was getting quite foggy while I was getting irritated and short. And I started to do some self-research with some great podcasts and books out there, realising that the time I was spending on my screen wasn’t healthy for my brain at all. So I started to go through a bit of a detox, using my screens less and less, my phone less and less, realising there was more outside of that. And then that’s what brought the rest of the family on board as well, realising that if it’s bad for me, it’s going to be bad for Jane and the boys as they grew up as well. 

Jane (Guest) (02:58): 

Yeah. I certainly think it’s important to model the behaviour that you’re asking of your children. And because our kids are still young, it’s not been a huge impact, you know, a huge issue for us. They’re allowed to watch television. They don’t have computer games, iPads, or YouTube. And I think it’s just about setting those boundaries within your family and then just sticking to them, but always explaining and bringing the children along with you. 

Ian (Guest) (03:18): 

Yeah, the kids always have the right to know why. We can’t just say no, it’s always got to come on their level as well. And if they understand in their language, then it makes more sense, and they realise we’re not just being in control, we’re actually trying to share the same model with each other. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (03:31): 

I think that’s so wonderful, the modelling the behaviour we talk about all the time, but also bringing your children into the conversation. It’s so they feel like it’s part of a family decision, giving them that agency and opportunity to be a part of the decisions in the family. 

Ian (Guest) (03:47): 

And I’ve certainly seen that we’ve allowed them to be braver. So as unplugs got bigger, we’ve had to use more and more time on our screens to communicate with everybody, the boys are encouraged to say, “Dad, get off your phone. Dad, put your phone away.” And then exactly, I’ll snap out of it and go, “You’re right, let’s put the phone back in the office. That’s where it should be. Right, what are we going to do now?” 

(04:05): 

So it encourages them to almost reach out at the same time because they can see it too. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (04:10): 

Absolutely. I’ve had that with my daughter. We have no phone at the dinner table thing, and I have out of habit reached for it to go, “Oh, I’m just going to message my mum about something,” and then my seven-year-old will be like, “Mum, you said no phones at the table.” So it is giving them that kind of confidence and understanding that there are these times where we are reconnecting and spending together, and they’re important. 

(04:29): 

And you mentioned Kiama Unplugged, and you started it as a way for families to disconnect so they can reconnect. Can you tell us a bit about how it all started? 

Jane (Guest) (04:38): 

Yes. It started just over a year ago. I’d just been reading more and more about the increased mental health issues with our young people since the rise of smartphones, and I just was becoming really uncomfortable with it. And our eldest was only six at the time, but I turned to Ian and I said, “We cannot give them phones when they go to high school, but we can’t give the internet access to our 12-year-old.” I just felt really uncomfortable with it. And that’s kind of how Kiama Unplugged was born, that we wanted to start having conversations in our community with other parents in the hope that we could pledge not to just give them the smartphone because they turned 12, and that by doing it as a community, it was more likely to be successful. 

Ian (Guest) (05:17): 

Yeah. And what we noticed in the community when we started having those conversations a year ago about how we’re going to use our phones less and less, we’d spend more time out in Kiama without our phones, but then we’d realise how endemic the whole thing had been. You’d be at a coffee table in a coffee shop and you’d suddenly realise all the families were on their phones, or you’d go to the park and you’d see all the parents were on their phones with the kids playing. 

Jane (Guest) (05:36): 

Mm-hmm. 

Ian (Guest) (05:37): 

And that reinforced our belief that we needed to do something to unplug ourselves and unplug the community as well. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (05:42): 

That’s wonderful having those conversations with other families. And bringing the conversation out to the community and all being on the same page, it makes it so much more of a community decision. 

Ian (Guest) (05:54): 

And then you feel less isolated and your kids feel less isolated, because they don’t want to feel like they’re the only child at school without a phone, but if three or four families have the same belief, that grows, and those three or four kids play in the park, play at school, and then other people see that change as well. So it’s important to express across the community. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (06:09): 

Yeah. And I think that is the fear from children if the screens are taken away, that they are going to be isolated, but in a way they are isolating with the screens. So if you are able to bring them to events, like Kiama Unplugged events and out to the park, and see other kids, you can see physically that people are together, there they can realise actually, “No, this is not isolating. We’re actually all coming together.” 

(06:32): 

And so I wanted to talk about the events you’ve held so far. What does the community expect from a Kiama Unplugged event? What can they experience? 

Ian (Guest) (06:39): 

So Finding Fillmore’s is a great community cafe in Kaima, and we realised it was a great space to try our first events because they don’t have any TAB or KENO, or any sports screens, running TV screens. It’s very just a natural space. And Morgan, who owns Finding Fillmore’s, has always done some great community events as well. So we approached him a year ago and said, “Hey, we’ve got this idea. We’d like to start doing phone-free events in the pub.” And he said, “Fantastic. Let’s have a go.” And the first one was about a year ago. We had over 45 adults turn up, which was amazing to see. 

(07:07): 

And it just kept it really simple. A lot of people say what we bring is what they have at home with all the Lego and the card games of painting pebbles, et cetera. But we’re putting it in an environment where there is no screens, and it allows the neutral clean space to develop. 

(07:21): 

That went really well with the adults, but then after some feedback, we realised that there actually should be the families included, not just the adults as well. So then we moved it to a sort of family friendly Sunday afternoon event at Fillmore’s. Sometimes we have nearly a hundred people there at Fillmore’s without their phones, again, with the same simple things regards Lego, card games, drawing, colouring in, but just a lot of free play as well. And it allows the kids to create that beautiful space as well. 

(07:45): 

And then Cin Cin, a great little wine bar, another sort of community space as well, came to us and said, “Hey, would you like to come and start doing a book hour there as well?” So that grew. That’s on this afternoon. But that’s just not only about books. We’ve seen people bring knitting, Lego, which has been fantastic; even card games and puzzles as well. 

(08:01): 

And we’ve got some other fantastic events coming up as well. 

Jane (Guest) (08:03): 

We’ve got permission for a public piano to go into our local, what’s called Kiama Village where the supermarket is. So they’re going to do that. 

(08:12): 

Got Unplugged After Dark coming up, which will be adult only, where you’re encouraged to come along either as a single to sit on a group table or in a couple or a group on a phone free kind of date night, connect night. 

(08:25): 

Uncaught and Unscripted. We’re going to do a spring walk with a local outdoor education company. Just some like pop up things. Like on a nice sunny Saturday afternoon, we might just say, “We’re going to be at this beach with loads of shovels. Bring the family and let’s see what we can create.” No plan, child-led and just an hour, no cost. So there’s things like that that we definitely will be doing in the future. 

(08:48): 

And with regards to what you can expect; noise, laughter, just joy from the simple things, connection, kids of all ages playing with each other, adults and kids interacting. There was a beautiful moment on Sunday where this family with two teenage sons played Scrabble together for like an hour. How wonderful is that? 

(09:05): 

And then just people not being distracted. They’re not on their phones, they’re not being taken away by notifications and pings. So they’re just present. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (09:13): 

You’re really thinking about how you can reach so many different people and families and making offerings for different kinds of events. And I really loved what you said about expecting noise. It just made me realise how quiet it can be in a home when everyone is on a screen. 

Jane (Guest) (09:29): 

Yes. Well, so interesting. There was an article a while ago about a tennis player that complained about a baby crying. Which fair enough. That’s a professional sport. Absolutely. Same if you had a coughing fit; you’d probably walk away. But I think what we have to become comfortable again with is noise, because since giving children and youth screens, everywhere has become very quiet. When you take them away, the noise is going to increase, but it’s good noise. It’s not bad noise. So … 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (09:55): 

Yeah, it’s that laughter, it’s that connecting, it’s that talking and telling stories, and even offering those date nights. But I also love the creative play. And we often talk about how good being bored is for children and families; getting those shovels at the beach and going, “What can we do here?” Just having that moment of the joy of finding and making moments that you haven’t pre-planned and haven’t put down to every minute detail or watching or something like that. 

Ian (Guest) (10:22): 

And it’s also important for us to be bored as adults as well. Like how often do you make yourself a cup of tea or coffee in the morning and you grab your phone rather than just sitting outside? So we need to be bored as well, which is why so many events allow us to be bored to get that brain just wondering. And then you’ll create new ideas as well. You may come back from an event with an idea that you really want to try when you get home as well. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (10:41): 

And that’s it, and then take into the family home. I think what Kiama Unplugged is offering is those seed ideas, and then it can grow into something that become family rituals and routines. 

(10:51): 

I was wondering if you could share with us any surprising moments or outcomes that you’ve had to your events or what people’s reactions have been. 

Jane (Guest) (10:59): 

Yeah. So something I really loved, we had an event just on Sunday, and we have these giant Jenga blocks, but the children had decided they didn’t want to play Jenga with them, and they took them and they made this whole town scene with them and put little flowers and decorated it. And it was just lovely that they’d seen these blocks and gone, “Well, I don’t want to play Jenga. I’m going to do this.” 

(11:18): 

And similarly, a time couple of months earlier, there’s a pizza oven at this place and the kids had obviously been inspired by that. So they got some of the coloured paper, and again, some of the flowers, and they made their own pizza oven and they were playing pizza shop. And so it’s just great to see that kind of play, I think. That’s what I’ve really loved. 

Ian (Guest) (11:35): 

One of the biggest surprises I saw was the first adult Unplugged night we did a year ago, there was a young guy in his mid-twenties that kept coming to the entrance to Fillmore’s, standing there and then walking away back into the dark again. He did this about three times over half an hour. And then he finally came in, it was like that step in. 

(11:52): 

And I sat down with the lad. We actually played chess. He was a very good chess player. And I said, “What was the reason you were doing that?” He said, “It’s because I felt like I was stepping into a void. I was leaving the phone behind me going into a space I wasn’t comfortable to be in. And I was so nervous, I was going back to the car to sort of hold my phone, get that fix again, and then try and come back in.” It took him a few goes to come in. 

(12:14): 

And then by the evening, he’s making this most amazing Lego and just being himself again, being a 10-year-old child again. But it was that realisation that shocked, that how much the phone was in control of his life. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (12:25): 

That’s so interesting. And I think a lot of us like to think that we could just put it down and walk into an event like that, but we are so drawn to it or connected to it that it’s hard to disconnect from it. 

(12:37): 

We all have those times where we do reach for our phone or hand our children the iPad, as we’ve mentioned. What are some ways you think families can fill their time without reaching their phone? 

Jane (Guest) (12:48): 

In our home, we certainly do a lot of things, you know, like our kids do love Lego, so we play a lot of Lego, build a lot of Lego. We make cubby houses. We live on a cul-de-sac, so we go out on our street on the bikes and the skateboards and things. You know, we bake together, we do art together. 

(13:03): 

Yeah, that’s I think obviously all going to be age appropriate or whatever your children are into, but yeah, try to let them lead. But playing with them, I think, at least some of the time … Obviously it’s also important they play independently, but you know, being there in the moment. 

(13:17): 

And then outside of the house, we have what we call a grab bag that either lives by the door or in a car. And so it means if we suddenly find ourselves perhaps in a more adult environment, like a dinner or something, we’ve got Uno or Snap to play and then we’ll play with the kids who are at the table, or we’ve got colouring in or magnets. And I think that certainly helps. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (13:38): 

I love the idea of a grab bag. 

Ian (Guest) (13:39): 

It’s good. It’s easy to do. It’s just an old school bag, one of the kids’ school bags. And you’ve already got all the facilities at home. You just grab a bit of Lego, grab the Uno cards. 

(13:46): 

The two things that I was trying to think about is that we have to realise that we think the phones are entertaining the kids when we give them the phone. It’s like, “Oh, that relief.” But actually they’re not. They’re being drawn into there and they’re not even allowed to develop themselves. And it’s important to realise that it probably takes about 10 to 20 minutes of them nagging or asking to be entertained to then the boredom to kick in and then create things. 

(14:07): 

We had a few times where I’d set a timer on my watch, 20 minutes; “Dad, dad, dad, play, play, play. What can we do? I need something.” And then the timer would go off and I’d go, “Where are the kids?” And three hours later, I’d finally find them up in one of the bedrooms making the most amazing fort. And you’ve just got to let the house be that mess, that tapestry to paint on. 

Jane (Guest) (14:23): 

And I also think it’s really important to say, “Look, we are certainly not judging anybody.” We know it’s hard parenting, and we also know we do not know what’s happening in other people’s lives. And if you’re just having a kind of day where you know what, you just need 20 minutes, maybe that’s what you do. We would encourage things like ABC Kids or Children’s Netflix over something like YouTube, where it’s that constant changing and instant gratification, which we know isn’t very good for their brains, but maybe more like a proper show or a story. 

(14:53): 

So we are not coming at this with judgement. We’re just trying to share what works for us. 

Ian (Guest) (14:58): 

And sometimes when the kids are asking for us to play or they’re looking for ideas, I sometimes say to them, “What would you like to learn today? What can I teach you?” And it’s the most bizarre things from, “How do I bake a cake? How is bread made? How do I use the soda stream?” Even Hugo, our oldest saying, “Show me how you make Cheerios in a bowl and where you get it all from.” 

(15:17): 

So if they come up with ideas as well, we can then pass that knowledge on and then the entertainment flows from there, so … 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (15:24): 

I think it’s just about arming your tool belt and your children’s tool belt with other options and it’s creating that balance. The screens are a part of our lives and not going anywhere, and it’s about finding those times where, “Yes, okay, let’s watch an episode or two here while mum goes and does this because mum needs to do this.” 

(15:40): 

And then I think about my girls who go to karate and while one of them’s doing their class, the other one’s on the phone; well, we could just give them the option of, “What about this bag that’s filled with games?” And like you said, we’re not going out and buying new things. We’re just taking what is from home. We’re using an old bag, it’s just by the door, and we grab it when we leave the house. And it’s just offering those other moments. 

Jane (Guest) (16:02): 

Yeah, absolutely. And it’s so funny you said karate. So our children do jiu-jitsu, and one’s on the mat whilst the other’s in the waiting room. And when we first started going, that waiting room was filled with kids on screens. Whereas we’d turn up with a grab bag and we’d play magnets or cards or colour in with the children. And slowly over time, the other kids would put their screens down and they’d come over and ask to play with us. And of course we’d be like, “Of course you can.” 

(16:24): 

Now it’s really rare to see a screen in that waiting room. Most kids turn up with their toys or they play with another kid’s toys. And it’s been really lovely to see that. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (16:32): 

Was going to ask since you’ve been on this journey, what are some of the things that you’ve implemented in your own home? 

Jane (Guest) (16:38): 

Yeah, absolutely. 

(16:39): 

So about three years ago, we told our children that YouTube was broken, and so we took it off our television, because we just found they were doing that, just kept changing what they were watching every few minutes. You can have Netflix or ABC Kids and watch a show, but that was one thing that’s been really good. 

(16:53): 

No phones at the table. So we never have phones at the dinner table. That’s not allowed. We really do try and keep our phones in our office and not in the main kind of living area so that we’re not on them. And we never fub our children. So we wouldn’t be … If we’re on our phone and then our kid comes to talk to us, it goes down, we look at them, we answer their question. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (17:13): 

Can you explain what fubbing is to listeners that might not know? 

Ian (Guest) (17:16): 

So fubbing is when you’re trying to multitask at the same time. You’re on your phone, be it sending a message, sorting out what’s going to happen tomorrow, checking the weather, and you’re looking at your screen. And your child will come up to you and say, “Mum or dad, can you help me with this?”, or, “What do you think of this?”, and you’re trying to talk to them at the same time. And you think you’re helping them, but all they’re seeing is the back of the phone like this. And over time, the child is going to find you less approachable; and adults do it to each other as well. 

(17:44): 

And we changed our habits. So if the child was going to talk to me or she was going to talk to me, I’d put the phone down, walk away, and then engage. But they’re realising now that if we had decided to fub, they’d actually walk away and then come back when we aren’t on our phone. 

(17:57): 

One thing that Jane said about the office, which is such a simple thing; we’ve moved the phone chargers into the office. They used to be in the centre of the lounge room by the island where all the food gets made in the kitchen. By moving the phone chargers in there, the phones are just not present all the time. They’re not there. 

(18:12): 

And one thing I’ve really enjoyed doing with the boys is I bought a thing called a K-Safe, which is an amazing timed box. I’ll send you the details. You put your phone in it and you agree a time, and then you lock it and you cannot physically open it until the timer runs out. Be careful. It can run for a very long time. 

(18:28): 

So it’s almost like a contract with the kids; especially on a Sunday. We do a lot of phone-free Sunday. I’ll say, “Boys, how long do I put the phone in for?” They’ll say like an hour or two, and you click it. But then you realise after two hours, the box is still unlocked, but you’re not going back to it. So it’s that sort of agreement. 

(18:43): 

And the other thing that we’ve been really excited about recently, we actually put a landline back in our house this week. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (18:47): 

I’ve heard people are doing this. 

Ian (Guest) (18:49): 

Which a lot of people are doing. It was just a simple thing. Our modem already had the plug for it. We got the phone off eBay. It’s a phone that’s got the photo of mum and a photo of dad as a preset on the number, so they can phone it when one of us is away and talk to us; or vice versa. We can phone and it goes directly to the kids as well. 

(19:06): 

So that’s a simple … These are all old-fashioned ideas that we’ve lost that we’re bringing back. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (19:10): 

Yeah. And bringing back those moments to connect. 

(19:12): 

Oh, the fubbing. I know I’ve done that. Like you think about you’ve been on your phone and you’ve had your child try and talk to you, and you just don’t actually think about what, from their perspective, because we’re so much taller than them as well and they’re little looking up to the back of a phone, what that perspective is. 

Ian (Guest) (19:31): 

Well, a really good tip for fubbing; everyone puts a photo of their family on their phone. They’re like, “Oh, it’s my family. It’s my phone.” If you just have a black screen or a blank background, you’re not associating your family with your phone. So if you’re looking at your phone and there’s a picture of your kids on there and they’re talking to you and you’re fubbing them, your brain thinks that you’re looking at them. So make your phone a tool rather than a family portrait. That would really help. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (19:54): 

Mm-hmm. 

Jane (Guest) (19:56): 

And it’s something that’s so easy to do, the fubbing, and I think that it does make you just rethink about it from their perspective. 

(20:02): 

Because often we might be doing a work thing, you know? It’s not necessarily that we’re doom scrolling. It might be replying to an important work email and your child comes to tell you about the dream they had last night. And for you in that moment, actually your work email might feel more urgent than your kid’s dream, but you just have to think, “No, this is important to them. I’ve got to put this down, listen to their story.” Or if it is really, and you say, “I really want to hear about your dream. Mum’s just got to do this email for work and then I’m going to come and sit and listen to it.” 

(20:30): 

So it’s just working out the ways that you communicate, I think. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (20:34): 

That leads me into my next question perfectly about communicating and the conversations, because I think you guys have provided really great kind of practical things like moving the phones away, potentially getting a landline, things that we can do physically. But when we start having the conversations with our children about removing the screens or limiting the usage of screen time, what is your advice on how we speak to our young people about that? 

Jane (Guest) (21:00): 

We keep it honest and we keep it age appropriate. So that’s the first things. 

(21:04): 

And then you decide on your boundaries as a family, because of course they’re going to have friends who have different rules. But that’s not just about phones. There’s friends who aren’t allowed any sugar or friends who are only allowed to go in the ocean with floaties on. Everyone has their different family rules and children are used to, “Yes, well, that might be all right for your little friend, Peter, but in this house, this is what we do.” And so I think you just have to be clear, you have to explain it to them. And you know, we’ll say to our children, “We actually don’t think that iPads or computer games are very good for your brain at your age. And as your parents, it’s our job to protect you and that’s the reason.” 

Ian (Guest) (21:39): 

And then like I said earlier about going to their level, you then help them understand why. Because they don’t know that their brain is developing in a different way because they’re younger to yours or how the neural pathways will get cemented before they’re 16. So if you help them understand simple stuff, there’s some great books out there for kids about the brain. So if we can just help them understand the why behind the rules rather than just give them the rules, then it sort of makes it clearer. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (22:01): 

What about families that are struggling with these conversations and struggling with screen time, and maybe listening to us and this conversation and thinking, “Well, I’ve tried and I’m finding it really difficult?” What advice do you have to those families? 

Jane (Guest) (22:16): 

We’re not saying it’s going to be easy, especially if you’ve already given your child a phone and you’re trying to remove it or reduce it. And I think you’re going to have to expect maybe some uncomfortable conversations and some pushback from your child. So it might be about implementing things slowly. It might be, depending on the age of the kid and what they have, but I think a great rule is no phones in the bedroom, phones only in communal spaces. It might be obviously about access to passwords and things so that you can monitor. 

(22:44): 

Obviously with the rules coming in around no social media for under 16s, I think you can use that as a starting off point to say, “Look, they’re actually not going to let people your age have it anymore so I don’t think we should be letting you have it. We’ve made a mistake as your parents with the information we had at the time, we didn’t realise, and now we know this.” 

(23:02): 

So again, I think it’s a conversation. It’s got to be a bit of back and forth. It’s got to be modelled behaviour. And I think you’ve got to replace it as well. Like if you’re saying to your child, “You can no longer have this,” then maybe you’ve got to be more available to them to do other things with them. 

Ian (Guest) (23:17): 

Just a simple step, as you say. It’s the way you just go, “I feel like I’m struggling with my phone use, so I would like to try some things in the house to help me,” rather than sort of put the pressure on them. So you say, “Hey, this morning we’re going to walk down to the beach. It’s only going to be 20 minutes. I’m not going to take my phone. It’s going to help me feel different. If you don’t take your phone too, you can have it when you get back. Before we have the phone back, let’s have a chat about how we’re feeling, how more connected, how’s our brain feeling? What did we see? How more present were we?” 

(23:43): 

It doesn’t mean it’s changing 24 hours a day. Even sort of 10 minutes, 15 minutes a day is enough to start getting you realise, “Actually, that was a really nice 15 minutes.” 

Jane (Guest) (23:51): 

And you don’t have to take photos of everything. A lot of people, they can maybe cope without their phone with regards to social media, but they’re like, “Oh, I need to take a photo.” 

(24:00): 

When we were children, you got a photo probably on your birthday, first day of school, if you got an award, and holidays. We didn’t have 20 photos taken of us every day of our lives. So there’s also remembering that. 

(24:12): 

Or we’ve dug out our old little digital cameras that if we do know we want to take photos of something, we’ll use that instead. So yeah, there are options as well. 

Ian (Guest) (24:20): 

And we also allow the kids to use that camera as well. So they are then able to take photos from their angle, from their height, from what they want to see, because you all want to see things differently, so … 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (24:28): 

It’s a lot of unlearning for the grownups as well. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (24:32): 

And again, going back to that modelling that if we are putting those limitations and if we’re having those conversations, I think, Ian, you made a great point of coming at the child in the conversation of like, “I am struggling with my screen time as well. So let’s do this together.” And not having to take photos of everything. Oh my God, that really helps. Like yes, I take photos of everything. 

(24:52): 

So it is that unlearning, and also that … I guess you have a little bit of underlying anxiety of, “I need to be connected in case something happens.” 

Ian (Guest) (25:00): 

Yeah, something we discussed when we started solo walking without your phone, you go, “Oh, but if my son starts choking, I need to phone an ambulance. I don’t have a phone.” Then you look up and you see 20 people on the path. I can guarantee nearly 90% of those people will have a phone anyway that they can use to phone 000. Because even as an adult, we’re not immune from using our phone just because after 24 we’ve got more control. You’re still going to use your phone for five or six years of your life in total. That’s time that you’re still using as an adult that you could sort of even reduce. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (25:28): 

Yeah. And I think we’re in a really interesting pocket of time at the moment these few years where we’ve had younger children or older children starting to use phones probably earlier than they should have, and now we have the laws coming in. So there’s a lot of unlearning. 

(25:43): 

I think the years to come up after it may be easier because we’ve got more restrictions in place. It’s this funny time I think we’re all in at the moment with children that are in their early teens-ish now where we’re all trying to figure this out. And I think as grownups, we’re trying to figure it out, the laws are trying to figure it out, the restrictions and everything. There’s so many conversations around it. 

(26:05): 

So yeah, hopefully we’re landing on something, but I think we’re in a really interesting time at the moment when we’re starting to figure out the effects. 

Ian (Guest) (26:13): 

At least we can see the data, because it’s sad that the current teenagers had to go through this with their mental health. It’s been extraordinary how bad it’s been, but at least we can now see the data and go, “I’m sorry that we invented the phone. This is what’s happened, but we can now make a difference.” 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (26:28): 

Jane and Ian, I’m wondering what is something that families can do right now if they want to reconnect? 

Jane (Guest) (26:35): 

I think they can ban phones from the table. I think that’s definitely a really easy one. And I think then again, bringing your children, asking them, maybe you’ve got Saturday morning free, “What do you want to do today?” And it doesn’t have to cost too much. You might be just going to a park or a beach or kick a ball around the back garden or build a fort at home. You know, depending on your kid’s age. But there are so many things that you can do as a family, but I think let it be child led as much as you can is really important. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (27:04): 

Mm-hmm. 

Ian (Guest) (27:05): 

And just talking to your kids about your childhood and say what you were doing, where you were playing and your memories, because you’re going to remember all the times you’ve made a den, but you won’t remember all those Saturday morning TV shows you used to watch when your parents were still asleep. You know what I mean? So it’s like remembering all the things that I did, like the star gazing, learning how to light a fire, learning to build a fort, the time I got hurt, and then show the kids that and then bring that into a conversation. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (27:28): 

Yeah. I did this the other day. I said to the girls, “Do you want to go outside and look at the clouds?” And they said, “Yes”, and we just lay on the grass. And there weren’t that many clouds because it was quite sunny, but it was just that thing of, I just remembered lying on the grass and going and looking up at the stars and the sky. And I just thought we’d had a big family event and I could have cleaned up, and the house was left a mess longer than it should have, but we had this amazing time where we were just lying on the grass and looking in the sky, and then it turned into them rolling me up in a blanket and turning me into a sushi roll and … 

(28:01): 

But all this stuff happened from it and we were laughing and playing. And I was like, “Oh gosh, this is trying to hark back to those times where you were a child and go, ‘Oh, that was fun. Why don’t we try that?'” And you remembered why you remember it as a core memory, because it was so fun. 

Jane (Guest) (28:18): 

Yeah. 

Ian (Guest) (28:18): 

Don’t be afraid just to have fun and just be a little bit silly. Just because you’re an adult doesn’t mean … We’re still actually just a 10-year-old inside. 

(28:25): 

And watch more Bluey because Bandit’s got all the games, honestly. Just have fun, make as many random games as possible. And the kids will be so imaginative and they’ll make some amazing games for you to play that you wouldn’t even think of. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (28:35): 

I was wondering if you have any particular moments in time in your family since you’re trying to unplug that you have seen benefits in your own family that have come from this? 

Jane (Guest) (28:47): 

Yeah, I think the kids are more creative. I definitely think that since having more time as a family without screens, they’ll just be like, “Oh, mum, can you get us some cardboard and some green paint today? I’m going to make a car,” or something like that. So they’ll decide what they want to make and then just ask us to get the materials for them. So that’s something. 

(29:06): 

And I think also, yeah, we’ve talked about it already, but asking them things like, “What would you like to learn this week?”, or, “What would you like to do this week?” I definitely think that’s been a real positive in our family. 

Ian (Guest) (29:18): 

I also feel like we’ve had to have less and less toys in the house or even less Lego, just actual boxes of Lego. 

(29:22): 

As you said earlier, six months ago, we went to the local recycling centre and Hugo and they had seen this old Billy cart. And I was like, “Oh, no way.” And they’re like, “No, dad, we know exactly what we’re going to do with it. We’re going to paint it. We can do this. We can put stripes on it.” And they had this whole idea. 

(29:35): 

So by the time we got home, we then spent all afternoon painting this and fixing it and servicing it, and then screaming up and down the road. And it’s just realising that as we’ve developed this and more free play, the children are actually playing, as you say … The box that the toy comes in is now more fun for them to play with than the actual toy. 

Jane (Guest) (29:52): 

I think it’s about being open, accepting that your house might go a bit messy. And yeah, op shops are great places, libraries are great places. It doesn’t have to be limited because of finance. Like I think a lot of this can be either free or very low cost. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (30:07): 

Yes. Libraries are great. Toy libraries. 

Ian (Guest) (30:10): 

Toy libraries. We started the beach toy library in Kiama, and it’s amazing to see. You walk past there and you’ve got families just on the beach playing with your toys. And they don’t even know we put it there. In fact, you didn’t even know I put it in there. 

Jane (Guest) (30:20): 

Not at first, no. 

Ian (Guest) (30:22): 

It was a big secret. 

(30:22): 

So as you say, people in the community are donating beach toys that they don’t need, and then it’s a zero cost for the people on the beach who want to play. So simple things like that. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (30:31): 

What a great idea, a beach library. 

(30:33): 

That takes me really nicely into my next question, which is if someone is listening and has been inspired by your Kiama Unplugged events and wanted to start something similar in their community, what would you suggest they do? What’s your advice there? 

Jane (Guest) (30:46): 

So we’ve actually, because we’ve been getting such positive response to Kiama Unplugged, we’ve now started Australia Unplugged in its early form so that we can help other communities come under our umbrella, and then they might be Berri Unplugged or Newcastle Unplugged or … 

(31:01): 

So they can approach us. We have a website with an email address. Ironically, we are also on Facebook and Instagram. So they can find us and get in touch, and then we can help them with a logo, with some guidelines and some ideas of how to get started. 

(31:15): 

And then of course they can be as creative as they want to be. Really, it’s just about being phone free and connecting. But we can certainly share things that we’ve done like the beach toy library or the family events, the adult events, the Lego. Yeah, we can certainly help. 

(31:29): 

So yeah, please, anyone who does want to set up their own, they can get in touch. And also if people want to help and become part of Australia Unplugged or Kiama Unplugged, then again, get in touch with us. 

Ian (Guest) (31:39): 

As Jane said, it’s such a simple plan. As long as it’s phone free and a way for people to connect, it could be almost anything. And that’s the beauty of the process. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (31:49): 

Such a wonderful movement that you have started. It’s so great. And I love that you’re bringing it to nationally. So we’ll absolutely put any links to your Facebook or anything, any way that people can read more about you and find out more about you. 

(32:02): 

I wanted to leave you with one last question, which we leave most of our guests with, which is if you could leave our listeners with one or two final thoughts or things to remember from our conversation today, Jane and Ian, what would they be? 

Jane (Guest) (32:17): 

Mine would be keep it simple. Schedule phone free time for everyone in the family. And also remember, we’re not aiming for perfection, we’re just aiming for, you know, an improvement. 

Ian (Guest) (32:27): 

I would say just try and slow the day down, slow yourself down. We all rush as adults, but actually we want to create space and time in our day with nothing, with the ability to slow down. And the more you do that, the more you’re going to be present and see things around you, so … 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (32:41): 

Wonderful things to leave us with, and I will take so much from this conversation. 

(32:45): 

So thank you both so much for joining us. It’s been such a pleasure to talk to you both. 

Jane (Guest) (32:50): 

Thank you so much for having us. We love your podcast and we’ve really enjoyed the opportunity to share what we’re doing with you. 

Ian (Guest) (32:54): 

Thank you. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (32:55): 

Thanks. 

And thank you to our listeners for joining us. If you would like to keep up to date with our latest conversations, we would love it if you liked and subscribed to our Emerging Minds Families Podcast channel. You can also find us on Instagram at EmergingMindsAU, or on Facebook at Emerging Minds Families. 

Narrator (33:13): 

Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com. au/families for a wide range of free information and resources to help support child and family mental health. 

(33:25): 

Emerging Minds leads the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health. The centre is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.