Transcript for
Supporting emotional development and empathy in boys

Narrator (00:02): 

Welcome to the Emerging Minds Families podcast. 

Alicia Ranford (00:05): 

Hi. I’m Alicia Ranford and you’re listening to an Emerging Minds Families podcast. Before we start today’s episode, we would like to pay respect to the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains. We also pay respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, their ancestors and Elders past, present, and emerging from the different First Nations across Australia. 

(00:34): 

At Emerging Minds, we’re always exploring ways to better understand and support children’s emotional well-being and, today, we are going to explore the unique experiences of young boys. Their emotional development often unfolds in really subtle and surprising ways, and many parents wonder how they can encourage their sons to express feelings, navigate those big emotions, and also the ups and downs of daily life. We are joined by psychologist Rachel Samson, who is going to talk to us today about how families can really nurture emotional strength in their sons in ways that feel safe, real, and empowering. Welcome, Rachel. It’s great to speak with you today. 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (01:14): 

Thank you so much for having me. 

Alicia Ranford (01:16): 

Rachel, in your experience, do boys and girls express emotions differently in those early years? 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (01:23): 

This is such a good question because I think so many people, so many parents, would say yes, but we need to tease apart how much of it is differences that happen because of gender and how much of it is socialisation. So, it depends on what point and what age we are looking at how boys and girls express their emotion, but the answer is no. Boys and girls experience their emotions in exactly the same way. It’s just that we’re in this culture that has really narrow gender stereotypes that include how boys and girls should express emotion. So, once boys get to 2, 3, 4, especially if they’ve been in daycare settings or group learning settings, they’re already learning what boys are meant to do with emotions and what’s appropriate and not, and so we start to see these differences emerge at that point. But if we were in a different culture that valued emotions differently, I know there’s some cultures that don’t value anger for boys or girls or that value shyness for example, which we don’t, we would see those emotions expressed differently. 

Alicia Ranford (02:25): 

So, what I’m hearing is it’s really about what they see around them, what they experience at home from other adults or older children in their lives. Is that how they learn all of these things? 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (02:37): 

Yes, that’s exactly it. There’s even this fascinating research that shows that, as parents, we speak differently to a foetus once we know the sex of it, and so this gender socialisation starts before our babies are even born. If parents know that the baby is a male, they will talk about the kicks as being, “Oh, he’s going to be a soccer player,” and, “He’s going to be an amazing boxer.” And then, if it’s a female, they’ll say, “Oh, she’s temperamental. She’s already moody.” They’re described really differently from the very beginning, and so we are born into these cultural waters that are teaching us how to be a boy and how to be a girl. 

Alicia Ranford (03:22): 

Right from birth or before birth. 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (03:23): 

Yeah. 

Alicia Ranford (03:24): 

That’s amazing. So, what do you think some common misconceptions are about boys and their emotional expression? 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (03:31): 

I think that there is a myth that boys are tougher or that they need to be tough in order to grow up to be a healthy man and to be resilient. Since becoming a mom, but even before with nieces and nephews, but recently especially, I have seen how when a little boy will fall over, parents are so quick, “You’re fine. That didn’t hurt. Come on up.” You get, “That’s fine,” or sometimes there’s no response at all. I remember one sort of gym class where they’re trying out different ball sports and kicking and things, and a little boy was really upset and there was no response at all. But for the girls, they were getting much more nurture and much more responsiveness. 

(04:14): 

Of course, it differs widely from family to family, but I think that there is this idea that you need to harden up boys especially to make them cope with the world around them. And then, I think there’s also this myth that girls are more emotional and more sensitive, and that’s just not true. Sensitivity occurs equally in boys and girls, and some boys are more sensitive or less sensitive and some girls are more or less sensitive. So, it’s more a factor of temperament than gender. 

Alicia Ranford (04:45): 

So, what would you recommend for parents who are listening today that have those really young children? What would your advice be about navigating those emotions in those really early years? 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (04:57): 

The early years are essential for building children’s emotion regulation skills and their later resilience. When we sensitively respond to our kids’ emotions, help them to label them and make sense of them, we are not only helping them to settle and dial down when they’re really heightened, but we’re also building their emotional intelligence around emotions. That skill has been found to predict success in relationships, academic success, self-esteem, future parenting capacity. Everything you can think of is influenced by this skill to be able to regulate your emotions, just allowing children to have the space to have their emotions and really tending to them. 

Alicia Ranford (05:46): 

What about for parents who are now listening who have slightly older children and perhaps this is new information to them, what can they do to maybe do things differently moving forward? 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (05:59): 

The good news is that it’s never ever too late. We know, with attachment and with emotional development, that children are extremely open to support in these areas. What makes it a bit trickier when you have an older child is that they may have already built up some defences and they might have already internalised these stereotypes we’ve been talking about. You might say to a 10-year-old son, “Oh, I’m noticing you might be feeling anxious,” and, with these defences up, they might say, “No, I’m not. I’m fine. Leave me alone,” and so it can be tricky. So, sometimes, we need to go in through the back door, which is lots of modelling about emotions and for male figures, in particular, to express their emotions and share stories about where they might feel anxious. You might have dad or an uncle or someone saying, “Oh, I felt quite stressed at work today. I felt anxious,” and so they’re modelling that it’s okay to have emotions and to express them. 

(06:57): 

And then, boys are learning from watching, but also I think still trying to have those conversations with them and you might add a piece on. You might say, “I know that we haven’t talked about emotions much in our family, but we are learning that it’s actually really important to do that and it’s something that we want to change. So, we want you to know that it’s okay to have these feelings. Maybe we didn’t do it so great before, but we want to do it differently now,” and so kind of inviting them into that change. 

Alicia Ranford (07:23): 

I’m always really conscious about parents listening and go, “I didn’t do it that way, so what do I do now?” That was beautiful. What might parents notice in their son when they might be feeling overwhelmed or anxious? 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (07:37): 

In some sons, it will be more externalising behaviours that you can see, so it might be aggression, anger. It might be a lack of cooperation and kind of dialling up. For other sons, it might be dialling down and shutting down, so it might be withdrawing. It might be speaking less, engaging less in family activities. Different kids will respond differently to anxiety. Depending on their age, some kids will become more clingy and might start asking a lot of questions like, “What time are we going there on the weekend?” or, “What day is this happening at school?” So, any changes in behaviour may be a sign that something is going on for the kids, but different temperaments will display anxiety differently. 

Alicia Ranford (08:22): 

And are there things that you recommend, as a general rule, as a way parents can respond in both those that are getting heightened but also those that are withdrawing? 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (08:31): 

Again, coming back to communicating is really important. Children depend on us as their primary way of regulating emotion even when they can start doing it for themselves. It’s start at 5, they might start to have a little bit more control. It’s really until early 20s that we start to really nail some of this emotional regulation. Anything that you can do that you know historically has helped your child to feel secure and settled when they’re upset can be helpful. But, specifically with anxiety, it is often talking through it with them and understanding what it is that’s triggering them. If it’s a specific situation at school, we might need to step in and help problem solve, and it might be about trying to do something about the problem itself. 

(09:17): 

But if it’s more the child’s cognitive style where they’ve got a tendency toward ruminating or worry, then it might be really helpful to give them some cognitive strategies, which really just means techniques that they can use to start to manage their thoughts. So, it kind of depends where the anxiety is coming from as to how you might respond, but support is always helpful. So, we don’t want to withdraw and kind of think, “Oh, it’s a phase that’ll move past it.” More support than less support is really important when kids are anxious. 

Alicia Ranford (09:46): 

And I really love what you said at the beginning there about thinking back to things that have worked previously. I know, from a lot of parents we speak with, they think that they don’t have those skills within them, but often they’re doing a lot to already respond, so really drawing out those things that parents already do well. 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (10:05): 

Yes. 

Alicia Ranford (10:06): 

What role does connection play in helping boys feel really emotionally safe? 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (10:11): 

Everything. Connection is so important and for anyone listening who thinks, “What is connection?” Connection is really just thinking about the child’s mind and trying to relate to what they might be experiencing. For children to feel seen, heard, and understood, they need to know that we have a window into what’s going on for them on the inside. For some parents, that can seem tricky, especially if they grew up not really having parents who empathise with their experience or who talked much about emotions, but you can learn a lot through observing. We talk to parents about subtitling what’s going on for kids. It might just be, “Oh, I noticed that you got quiet when your brother said this.” Now, you might not know exactly what they’re feeling, but they’re experiencing that as, “Oh, wow, you saw what happened to me.” For kids who are more open, it’s about having conversations and you can ask directly, “How did that feel for you when your brother took your toy?” or, “You looked sad?” 

(11:12): 

And then, the next piece of connection is fully accepting whatever the child is experiencing. So, even if we would see it differently or we sort of think, “Oh, I don’t really understand the logic there,” we have to radically accept that that is their experience. Kent Hoffman from the Circle of Security, a parenting program, has this beautiful saying, “If I’m in Chicago, you can only meet me in Chicago. If I’m in sadness, you can only meet me in my sadness. If you try to pull me out of my sadness into feeling happy, you’re asking me to go to New York or somewhere else, and that’s not where I am. So, we can only connect if you meet me where I am in that moment.” 

Alicia Ranford (11:52): 

Isn’t that a lovely way to explain it? It’s not about just fixing it, from what I’m hearing, it’s about sitting with them in that moment. 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (11:58): 

Yes. Yes, that’s it. We don’t have to fix our kids’ emotions. I’ve got a toddler myself at the moment and I’ve got a couple of beautiful mom’s groups. Sometimes, moms will say, “I just don’t know what to do when they’re having a tantrum in that moment,” and we’ll talk about how just holding space for them and being there with them. That idea of being with, that comes from the Circle of Security and attachment research. That is connection. We can’t always fix it, and that’s not our job because we’re never going to make a perfect world for kids where they’re not going to be upset or have hard things happen, but it’s about not being alone in those experiences. 

Alicia Ranford (12:34): 

And when you say being with them, are we talking about, if they’re lying on the floor because they’re upset, lying down with them? Is it about having a cuddle on the couch? When I think of being with them, I think of my body being present with them. Is that what you’re talking about? 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (12:50): 

Yeah. So, it starts off as that. For our infants, they mostly prefer to be physically on us for a very long time, more than I think a lot of us expect. But then, as they start to internalise us physically being with them and become more autonomous and moving around more, then it is that coming together of minds. With a 20-year-old, you can be with them fully over the phone just deeply listening to what they’re sharing. The one thing, I guess the essential ingredient, irrespective of how you are with someone is that we are giving our full undivided attention in that moment. You can’t be with someone if half of your mind is on your to-do list or you are scrolling your phone. You have to really be present. 

Alicia Ranford (13:39): 

Gee, isn’t that something we can all listen and subscribe to a little bit more? Isn’t that being really present when someone’s talking to us, especially in this digital age? 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (13:46): 

Yes, all of us. 

Alicia Ranford (13:48): 

How can we help boys who perhaps maybe have seen some of the stereotypes that we’ve talked about? How can we help boys in expressing emotions beyond anger and frustration? By the time they’re 7, 8, 9, if they’ve learned anger and frustration, that’s what their go-to emotion is. How do we help them express emotions beyond that? 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (14:08): 

That becomes harder, but it’s still doable. I think media literacy is an important part of this. So, I think there is so much in the media that really portrays these gender stereotypes and these really narrow ones, and there’s obviously a bigger public conversation about that at the moment. But I think we need to talk about that and say to kids, “Do you notice that… In all the movies we’ve watched over the last month, have you seen men crying in them?” That kind of thing, it’s pointing it out. Or if you see a particular scene in a show or a particular message that is really undermining of boys’ wholeness, we can say, “Wow, that really struck me when there was that message there about boys don’t cry. What do you think about that? Isn’t it interesting how the media keeps putting out this message?” So, we are teaching them to be critical of the media. And then when they hear that message in the schoolyard or at Uni or somewhere else, they can think back to that conversation and be like, “Wow. There’s another example of that stereotype mom was telling me about.” 

(15:09): 

There’s some great leaders at the moment that are trying to challenge this and I think, if it’s on social media or somewhere, you can send kids reels and things. They might not be interested and roll their eyes, but they might be. And then, hopefully within the family, there’s a diversity of emotional expression and someone in the community who doesn’t sort of subscribe to those really narrow stereotypes. You can say, “Oh, what about grandpa? He’s really sensitive, isn’t he? He’s good with his feelings.” 

Alicia Ranford (15:39): 

Isn’t that lovely? That, over time, these messages can change in our young boys. What are gentle ways to talk about sadness or disappointment with young boys? 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (15:48): 

I think, from very early, you can start doing that. If you are in the really young ages, then it’s really easy to just start to label the feelings as they come up. I think it’s probably one of the things I’ve said most in the first sort of two and a half years of my toddler’s life is, “You didn’t want that to happen , did you? You didn’t expect that to happen, did you?” Disappointment all the time, the banana’s cut the wrong way or something happens that he didn’t want to happen. So, I think we can do that very early, and the same with sadness. But if it’s older and maybe it’s new to the family, then I think, what we were saying earlier, that you can say, “I feel really disappointed when something happens that I didn’t want to happen,” or, “I felt really sad the other day when this happened in the family,” or whatever it might be, so really just having those conversations. 

(16:39): 

But if boys are quite confronted by talking about emotions, you can use other language. Again, going in the back door, you could just say things like, “That sucked. That was a real bummer that that happened, wasn’t it?” so we don’t have to use the feeling words if that’s a deterrent for our kids to engage with us. 

Alicia Ranford (16:59): 

And it really goes back to your kids, don’t you? You know what works for them and what language to use and how to really communicate with them. 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (17:06): 

Yes, it is really true that parents are the experts on their own kids. There’s a lot of great stuff on social media now, but some of it’s prescriptive. I think you need to take the message but make it your own for what suits your family. 

Alicia Ranford (17:22): 

No, absolutely. How does play influence emotional development in boys? I know we talked about it a little bit before, about boys being in daycare and some learned behaviours, but how does play influence their emotional development? 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (17:36): 

I love that question. I recently heard someone suggesting to have dress-ups available, a big box of dress-ups for kids, and this person was saying, “Go to your thrift shop or something.” You can just keep collecting over the years because this is something that kids can use from very young to later in childhood. I think having a range of different toys and dress-ups and things can be really useful for that imaginative play and role-playing. But if we are involved in the play with young boys in particular, it can be really good to talk about the feelings of the toys that you’re playing with or the games that you’re playing. Even if it’s a board game and there’s, like we were saying, disappointment, “Oh, bummer, that’s so disappointing,” and so it’s a great way if we are involved in the play, I think, to encourage emotional expression. 

(18:32): 

My dad is really great with some of this stuff and he will say, “Oh, the fishy was sad,” to my son, and so he’s learning a lot about emotions while they’re engaging in play. But I think it’s just a really great opportunity for boys to role-play different roles and different aspects of themselves that they may feel that they can’t in some other experiences. And I hope that daycare centres and schools are having a wider range of toys and games that any gender can use now. Because I know that, for a lot of boys, once they get to two or three, they start to get this idea that, “I can’t play with that because it’s for a girl,” or, “I can’t have that colour because that’s a girl’s colour.” So, the more we have available, the more I think we widen the gender roles that boys can have. 

Alicia Ranford (19:20): 

And what would you say to parents who were perhaps brought up very differently and perhaps have a thought process about, “If we do this with our young boys, in particular, they’re going to grow up not tough enough or soft”? What would you say to parents who perhaps feel that that might be a worry? 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (19:39): 

The research shows that the boys who are most likely to grow up resilient are those who have secure attachment experiences with their caregivers. That is all about acknowledging emotions, acknowledging their needs. Like we’ve been saying, you don’t need to respond to everything or necessarily give into everything. It’s not that we have to be gentle with everything, but it’s acknowledging it and responding to emotions and helping them and coaching them. That is what builds resilience. We want boys to grow into men who have access to the full range of emotions and who don’t feel that they need to keep it to themselves because we know that that puts men at risk of poor mental health, that that leads to not seeking help, and that puts them at risk of things like self-harm and suicide and unhealthy coping behaviours. This stuff is so important and it is what builds resilience, and the research is crystal clear on that. We have 70 years of research that demonstrates that. 

(20:43): 

So, this emotional support and emotional conversations are so okay for boys, even maybe more for girls because girls have more access to this just by being a girl. So, I think boys need more of it. 

Alicia Ranford (20:56): 

It’s a great message and leads me beautifully into my next question about how fathers and male role models can really support that emotional openness, and you’ve talked a lot about modelling it, but are there other ways too? 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (21:08): 

Again, that attachment experience is so important. If your boys grow up with moms who respond to their emotional expression and their emotional needs, but dad doesn’t, then they’re learning that that’s something that women do. So, as their gender identity is forming, they’re still going to get the message that there’s something that women do, but it’s not something that men do. 

(21:31): 

I’ve seen some beautiful examples in the playground just very recently where boys have fallen and hurt themselves and dads have rushed in and said, “Oh, are you okay? Did that hurt?” or if they’re scared, “It’s okay. You don’t have to go up there. That’s not a problem,” and I think those are such beautiful experiences that are showing boys, “You can feel whatever you’re feeling. I accept what you’re feeling.” So, I think it’s crucial and I think it’s especially important because it is often… 

(22:01): 

We talk about this manosphere, this toxic ideas about masculinity online at the moment that a lot of teenagers and even younger are being exposed to. So, because that is coming from men, I think men play a really unique role then in helping to challenge that. It’s all well and good for women to talk about it and say it, but if there’s not men showing that, leading by example, then we still leave boys in a situation where, “Oh, I’m hearing women saying it’s okay and I’m hearing moms and carers say it’s okay to experience these emotions and show them that none of the men in my world are. I’ll be different if I don’t.” So, we need to all be playing a role in that. 

Alicia Ranford (22:42): 

And what are the signs that suggest really healthy emotional development in boys? 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (22:48): 

Being open about emotions, feeling comfortable to express what they’re feeling, being able to identify a range of emotions, I think they’re some of the most important ones. What we also see as boys are getting older is that, when they develop greater capacity to regulate their emotion, they will experience an emotion and it may be intense because, again, temperament plays a role. So, it might be that they go from 0 to 10, but we want to see them bouncing back after and coming back to a baseline. If they’re starting to do that by 6, 7, 8, then that’s a good sign that they’re developing really good emotional skills. 

Alicia Ranford (23:27): 

Is it also about looking to see that they show that empathy or that care for their friends in the playground as well? 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (23:33): 

Definitely, yes. We haven’t touched on empathy, but that’s absolutely key. Again, the research is clear that the more empathy that boys receive, so that connection, talking about emotions, being with, the more empathy they receive, the more empathy they offer to peers and grow up to be parents who show empathy to their kids. So, we’ve got sort of longitudinal data now that can track kids over time into adulthood, and it’s very clear that receiving that empathy early means that boys are more able to show empathy. 

Alicia Ranford (24:06): 

Again, that sort of 8, 9, 10-year-old age bracket, if they haven’t perhaps been shown empathy early on, is that also something that you can work on as they become young people? 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (24:17): 

Mm-hmm, definitely. The good news for parents is that, as a clinical psychologist, I work with a lot of adults who have experienced everything from brilliant childhoods to extremely traumatic childhoods, and receiving empathy through the process of therapy and then establishing new relationships where empathy is available can completely transform someone’s attachment style. So, whilst we don’t ever want to set out that our kids are going to need that later, and that’s why people listen to the podcast because they’re wanting to know what’s good to support kids now, it really is never too late. If you’ve got an 8-year-old or an 18-year-old, empathy will be brilliant for them now. 

Alicia Ranford (24:57): 

You’ve talked a bit about temperament. How does temperament and personality shape boys’ emotional needs? 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (25:03): 

Hugely. Temperament is the way that a person comes into the world reacting to their environment and the way that their capacity for controlling their impulses and emotions. It’s not to suggest that babies can come into the world controlling their emotions, they can’t, but we come with different machinery from birth. About 30% of the population is highly sensitive. So, 30% of boys are highly sensitive, and that means that they react much more strongly to their environment than boys who are less sensitive, and that’s not something that we can bypass. We don’t bypass our neurology or our temperament, but it means that some boys do experience bigger emotions, are much more sensitive to everything, seem to have higher empathy very early. These boys are not only more sensitive to stress and negative environments, but they’re also much more able to benefit from positive and supportive environments. So, with the right support, the sensitive boys can actually go on to be even more secure and more resilient and leaders. 

Alicia Ranford (26:10): 

Isn’t that fantastic to hear? 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (26:10): 

Yeah. 

Alicia Ranford (26:10): 

Yeah. It’s really important message, isn’t it? 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (26:15): 

So, we don’t want to squash sensitivity out of boys because this is where some of our most amazing leaders come from is from these sensitive beginnings. 

Alicia Ranford (26:22): 

And how fantastic that we’ve got the data now to show parents who maybe are sceptical or weren’t brought up themselves that way. We’ve got the data to really support that and show how important it is to really nurture the emotions in our young boys. 

(26:35): 

Rachel, thank you so much for joining us to talk about was such an important topic. If parents remember nothing else from our conversation today, what would you want them to take away? 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (26:45): 

I think being with your children’s emotions is probably one of the greatest gifts that you can offer and that, if we support them with their emotions when they’re young, but at any point during childhood, we really are building a solid foundation for so many other areas of life to build on from there. 

Alicia Ranford (27:04): 

That’s fantastic piece of advice. 

Thank you so much, Rachel. 

Rachel Samson (Guest) (27:07): 

Thank you so much for having me. 

Narrator (27:11): 

Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au/families for a wide range of free information and resources to help support child and family mental health. 

Emerging Minds leads the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health. The centre is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health program.