Transcript for
Supporting your baby’s brain through connection, culture and care

VO (00:02): 

Welcome to the Emerging Minds Families Podcast. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (00:07): 

Hi, I’m Nadia Rossi and you’re listening to an Emerging Minds Families Podcast. Before we start today’s episode, we would like to pay respect to the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast was recorded, the land of the Meanjin people. We also pay respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, their ancestors, and Elders past, present, and emerging from the different First Nations across Australia. 

(00:35): 

In today’s episode, we have a special guest host, Emerging Minds’ Senior Cultural Development Officer, Rosie Schellen. Rosie is joined by proud Aboriginal woman, Sheryl Batchelor. Sheryl’s path in education led her to explore the world of neuroscience. In this conversation, she shares valuable insights on nurturing your baby’s brain development, emphasising the power of everyday moments of connection that help children feel secure. Sheryl also discusses how she blends brain science with Aboriginal ways of knowing and that offers a powerful reminder that supporting our children’s brains begins with taking care of our own. Let’s get into this episode with Rosie and Sheryl. 

Rosie Schellen (01:19): 

Hi, Sheryl, and thank you so much for joining us today. Do you want to tell me a little bit about yourself first? 

Sheryl Batchelor (Guest) (01:25): 

I’m Sheryl Batchelor. I’m a very proud Aboriginal woman with cultural connections to Kunja, which is in Cunnamulla-Charleville area of Queensland. I first started off as a secondary school teacher and eventually became an assistant principal in a primary school. And on that journey, I became very frustrated with suspending and expelling children and I felt that we needed to do something different. So I went on a journey to find out what it was. 

Rosie Schellen (01:51): 

And what did that journey lead to? 

Sheryl Batchelor (Guest) (01:53): 

It led me to neuroscience. It led me to neuroscience and I was involved in a project for about six years looking at the brain. What can we learn about the brain, especially around brain science and neuroscience? And how can an understanding of that anatomy help us change the way that we help the brain develop and help the brain form and what do we need to do to keep it safe? Through that, I developed programs in playgroups, as well as for our most disadvantaged children, as well as in the workforce, looking at brain health across the lifespan. Because things happen in the early years, which we’re really aware of, and there’s changes in teenage brains, but it’s the adult brain we don’t talk enough about as well. And it’s the adult brain that influences other things that we need to talk about a bit more. 

Rosie Schellen (02:39): 

I want to hear this about the life standard. Can you describe that? How would you describe that for a parent around the development of the brain? 

Sheryl Batchelor (Guest) (02:47): 

Yeah. So the brain develops straight away from conception and what the man and woman eat and drink and connect with and how happy they are nearly up to eight weeks before they conceive is really important. We want to keep those times really, really happy and feeling safe in our relationship and safe in our community. That way, when we do have conception, that we’re starting off at a really good place and then that brain develops. We can start seeing actually the brain on brain scans when 15 weeks old, which is really quite interesting. The brain develops from there all the way until the day that you die. 

(03:28): 

There’s this thing called neuroplasticity, which means that your brain changes every day based on the experiences that you have. And you want to have experiences and do things that are fun. You want to be able to laugh, you want to be able to play, you want to be able to connect with people, you want to be able to do things that are challenging, but not too much challenging that you’re just going to give up after a while. 

Rosie Schellen (03:51): 

What happens if there are challenges? What happens? Do you know what I mean? 

Sheryl Batchelor (Guest) (03:55): 

Yeah. So if we wake up and we’re going to have a bit of a… If things are probably going to be yucky today, the moment we wake up is the start of setting your brain up for the rest of the day in a very positive way. So I’m going to wake up today and say, “Today’s going to be a deadly day. It’s going to be absolutely awesome. I’m going to get out there, I’m going to do this, this, this, and this.” But if I wake up going, “Oh, this is going to be yucky. I’ve got this, this, this, this on. I didn’t get enough sleep. The kids are going crazy.” You know, whatever, then I’m setting my brain up to look for really negative things. 

(04:30): 

By lunchtime, I’m going to feel really yucky and feel really yucky. And when I feel really yucky, I might eat too much. I might not want to go and talk to other people. I might want to drink or do some other things that I know is not the best for me. So we want to be able to wake up in the morning, even if it is challenging at home, but just going, “It’s going to be a deadly day.” It sets your brain up to prime to look for things that make you feel good. 

Rosie Schellen (05:00): 

Do you want to tell me a little bit about the brain? 

Sheryl Batchelor (Guest) (05:02): 

Yeah. So at a very really basic level, we have this part at the top here, this prefrontal cortex that’s like our superpower. It helps us make really good decisions. It helps us solve problems. We need to keep it really strong because it really helps guide us. And then we have this sort of middle part that’s lots of our emotions in there, lots of memories in there. That part also is really prominently there to make sure that we are doing things to keep us safe. 

(05:34): 

For example, if I walk out in the bush and I see a stick, my brain’s going to go, “Whoa, that stick, is that a snake? Oh no, it’s just a stick. It’s okay.” That part of the brain is really important. Also when we have our senses, all the sounds and the lights and what we’re feeling come through this back of our brain to that middle part and it helps us make meaning of what we see. 

(06:01): 

And then the bottom part is our brainstem. In that brainstem, it does things like our heart rate and our breathing. So that’s a very important part because that connects to our spine that goes all the way down and then comes back out again. So at the very basic level, let’s just think of it as three parts, but they all work together. None of it works in isolation. That’s why we’re going to need to keep the whole thing super-duper strong. 

Rosie Schellen (06:25): 

How would you describe good brain health or brain health and how it connects to everything else? 

Sheryl Batchelor (Guest) (06:30): 

Brain health means understanding that the brain is like an organ, like our heart and our gut. To keep that strong, we need to feed it well. We need to give it lots of good water. It likes being connected to people. It doesn’t like being alone. So we really need to understand what this brain likes. We know our heart likes to exercise and likes to have good food too. So what does our brain sort of might need? Good food, good water, and really good connection to people. It doesn’t like being lonely. Also it likes to play. It likes to play and have fun. It needs exercise. We need lots of blood flowing to the brain through exercise. It needs to be out in nature connected to our beautiful spirits and our ancestors through connection to land, to river, to rocks. One of the best things that we do for us, Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people, is actually sit under a tree and just feel it. And our brains love that. 

Rosie Schellen (07:34): 

Okay. So neuroplasticity is such a big word. Can you describe what that’s about? 

Sheryl Batchelor (Guest) (07:40): 

When I was a teacher, we were told that the brain can’t change, that you were born with all these brain cells that are in your brain and they’re all connected and there’s nothing that you could do to change it. We were told things like if a kid gets a D and they can’t do reading and writing, well, I’m sorry, but that’s what it is. That’s why when I was a principal, suspending kids, excluding kids, I thought, there must be something missing. That’s when I learned about this big word called neuroplasticity. That means that the experiences, which means what you do every day changes your brain. 

(08:20): 

Sometimes people say how you woke up with this morning and how you were in your brain then will be different to the time that you go to sleep because of what you did during the day. So if we think of it a little bit like that, it’s not really science around that, but let’s just say that happens. So if I do happy things, I’m connected, I’m learning, I’m eating well, my brain’s going to be super-duper strong and healthy. And then if I’m learning during the day, my brain changes. It means the cells will go, “Oh, you want to play with this cell? Great, let’s connect and stay together.” But sometimes neuroplasticity also works in the opposite direction. 

(09:01): 

If I wake up going, “I’m feeling yucky today. I think I’m going to stay in bed all day. I might eat lots of chocolates. I don’t want to talk to anyone.” Then the brain goes, “Oh, I’m going to make these connections to say, stay in bed all day. I don’t want to do this today.” So it makes those thinking thoughts super-duper strong and they’re really hard to change. It takes some real effort to change it. So neuroplasticity can be positive that gets on out there, makes us feel super-duper happy, or it can wire things in a way that if you’re always saying negative things, you’re always being angry, it will always make those connections stronger. 

Rosie Schellen (09:41): 

So what can parents do? 

Sheryl Batchelor (Guest) (09:43): 

Yeah. The first thing I’ll usually say to parents is, “As soon as you open your eyes up in the morning, what do you say to yourself? What do you do? Do you grab the phone? Do you start yelling? What do you do?” The first thing we should do is just lie in bed and just be. Not let go, but just be. Let’s think about, is the sun coming up? Is it already up? How can I take some deep breaths? 

(10:06): 

In other words, I’m priming my brain for a deadly day. And even if my kid’s screaming, I’m going to just take that extra second just to go, “It’s going to be a good day. It’s going to be a good day. Baby wants me. A little jarjum needs me and I’m okay with that.” And just go. 

Rosie Schellen (10:24): 

What are the things that they can do to support their baby’s brain? 

Sheryl Batchelor (Guest) (10:28): 

One of the things that we can do to help each other is that human beings are very well-connected to our land, our spirits, and to each other. We’re social beings and the science is really clear that we don’t like being alone. When our babies are crying, they’re saying, “I don’t like being alone. I need someone with me.” So babies are telling you very clearly, “Come and cuddle me. Where are you? I need you. I need to know I’m safe.” If you think about us, when we don’t feel very safe, we go searching for people. We may scream, but we go searching, we ring people, we look for people. Babies just scream to say, “Where are you? I need you.” That’s the best thing you can do is say, “I’m here.” 

Rosie Schellen (11:16): 

What are the things that might challenge a baby’s normal brain development? 

Sheryl Batchelor (Guest) (11:20): 

Yeah. The biggest thing that can challenge development is, as I said before, what mums and dads are eating before conception and drinking before conception. And then mum during conception, making sure that she is happy and safe and careful. Also at home, other siblings that live at home and there are other people that live in the house, whoever lives in the house, creating that nice, safe, happy place. Because we want to make sure that mum is handling her stress, whatever stress that need be. 

(11:50): 

And then when baby’s born, just to make sure that you’re talking to your baby all the time and having your baby here or even here so you have eye contact is so important. And probably not out there and then you here, but being connected, that touch, that massaging, which we all do really well, but just doing that more. You cannot cuddle your baby enough. And if you can’t and other people want to, which is what happens in our families, beautiful sharing and caring, that baby’s love and connection to other people and seeing faces is just so important. 

Rosie Schellen (12:28): 

Can you describe for me what happens in the brain when touch happens? 

Sheryl Batchelor (Guest) (12:32): 

The touch and the looking is the baby trying to connect. So even when we touch each other, it’s a sense of safety and the brain just goes, “Okay, there’s warmth there. There’s connection there and I’m safe.” So touching and cuddling and all that means that you’re listening to me. The brain’s saying, “Someone gets me. Someone’s here to help me calm down.” And you know what? As adults, we need that too. We go searching for our cuddles. Even our trees. We go searching for a tree to cuddle and sit beside. We go searching for that with our lands and in our rivers and our waterways. It gives us the healing that we need to be able to heal our brain. 

Rosie Schellen (13:13): 

So if a parent’s concerned that something might not be going as they’d hoped, what can they do? 

Sheryl Batchelor (Guest) (13:19): 

I think the first thing is, is to talk to other family members and talk to… We have a beautiful extended family that have raised children for generations and we are very good at connecting and talking to other families. So I would be that and saying, “I’m worried about this. I’m worried about that,” and see what they say. 

(13:38): 

The next thing is, is there health centres in the communities that they feel safe to go to? Whether it be a nurse or whether it be their local GP. But even before that, I would just take note of what I’m worried about. Just write down one or two things. Bubby slept for three hours last night where the last couple of nights have been sleeping 16 hours. So just have that in your little brain. And if you can’t remember it there, then just write it in your phone or write it down. So when you’re talking to someone, you’ve got that there because you want to be a bit distressed in having that conversation and therefore you might not remember everything. So writing it down can be very helpful. 

Rosie Schellen (14:20): 

What kind of clinic would they go to or doctor? What would they come to you for? 

Sheryl Batchelor (Guest) (14:26): 

Yeah. It depends on the community. In some communities, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island communities or even doctors, if they go to a playgroup, there may be at the early years centres where they have playgroups, nurses that are around, and some of them are connected to early years centres and parent and child centres as well. If you can’t see someone there, then your local doctor. 

(14:46): 

Sometimes they’re really hard to get into, but some of those community health services also have nurses there that you can talk to. And so even just ringing up the receptionist and saying, “I’m worried about this. Is there someone I can talk to now?” There also are, and I don’t know who they are, but I know that there is helplines. There are some helplines that parents can ring, but I don’t know if that’s the case in community. 

Rosie Schellen (15:11): 

Why is it important for parents to really have a good understanding what’s happening with the brain health of their children? Why is it really important? 

Sheryl Batchelor (Guest) (15:19): 

Yeah. As I said, the brain starts developing straight away into conception. And when bubby’s born, that really big connection is so strong because brains develop by social connection. So they need to know that there’s someone else there taking care of them because it can’t take care of itself. So by knowing that, it gets those billions of neurons in the brain, which are brain cells, connecting stronger. When I yell, there’s someone there that’s going to be there for me. So those connections stay super-duper strong. And we know zero to three, zero to five, zero to seven, it keeps changing in regards to how important the ages are, but it’s really from conception right through that the child needs all those good things that we mentioned before. Food, love and care. There’s people around them, their clothes are being changed, they’re taken care of. All those things are really, really important in the early years. 

(16:14): 

But this thing I mentioned before about neuroplasticity. If your child is born and there are some trickiness there, there are some things that you can do because this beautiful power of the brain can change. So if your child is diagnosed with something, it doesn’t mean the end. It just means there’s going to be exercises that you’re going to have to do, different types of play, different types of fun things that you’re going to do with your child to help their brains develop according to how their brain was born. 

Rosie Schellen (16:47): 

So there’s lots of families that might be living in rural areas and they won’t have access to supports. What are the things they can do in their everyday lives that’s not overwhelming, that can help with this stuff? What would you say? 

Sheryl Batchelor (Guest) (17:00): 

Top things, five things I say that you can do to help your little people grow up to be deadly people, which they already are anyway, but to amplify that, then sleep. Sleep is really, really important for little years. It’s really tricky to try and get little people to sleep when they’re overtired or when they’ve had not sitting day, when they’re not happy, but sleep is really important. So if you can set up some routines for sleep, that would be really helpful. But sleep can’t happen unless you’re eating properly. What I mean by eating properly is about eating for your environment. 

(17:34): 

Central of Queensland is different how we eat in Brisbane, for example, because of the different types of qualities of food and our totems and there’s lots of different things. So there’s no strict rule as such other than making sure we eat, making sure we drink, and preferably eating low-carb food so we don’t have a lot of those sugary things and things like that. 

(17:59): 

So we’ve got sleep, we’ve got food, we’ve got connection, cuddles every day, kisses every day. Lots and lots of cuddles and kisses is so important. Next one, lots of play. Lots and lots of play either by themselves with other children or with adults. Also, adults like to play too. And learning. So learning new things, taking little risk, you being around to support your child as they learn something. For example, if they’re sitting here with some Play-Doh, we’re just sitting back watching and they’ll turn around to watch to see, “Oh, there’s mum. Okay, cool. All right.” And then they’ll come up and ask you and show you and be present. 

(18:42): 

One of the things us adults do at the moment when we get a little bit bored is get our phones out. When we get our phones out with little people and we’re sitting here on our phones, the message that the little people are getting is you care more about the phone than you do about me. So if we can put that away, watch and enjoy, sit down beside them and just leave the phone for growing up time, that would be great. 

Rosie Schellen (19:07): 

From nought to 18, what would be the timeline of how the brain develops? 

Sheryl Batchelor (Guest) (19:12): 

Our brain develop at different stages. It basically develops from the bottom all the way this way. What science is saying at the moment is that this part of the brain, this prefrontal cortex, we’re born with it, it’s there, but the connections like the cells to cell and the little connections between don’t really fully develop until around about 25, this part of our brain here. And then for about five, six years between 25 and 30, it’s like the brain stabilises. What it does is this thing called pruning. If we’re not using some of those cells and some of those things, for example, if when I was younger, I was into bike riding a lot and I was pushbike riding everywhere. Now I’m 30, I’m not using it as much. The brain goes, “Oh, okay, bike riding, she might not need that so we might just get rid of some of those cells there.” So it sort of puts them away and go, “She doesn’t need them.” 

(20:11): 

But at 40, I come back and I get back on my pushbike again. My brain goes, “Oh, okay. She did do push biking back there, but some of those cells are no longer there, so she needs to develop more connections and everything and make them stronger.” That’s that neuroplasticity stuff. But after 30, us adults have some changes in our brains too. It’s the impact of hormones. A little bit like the hormones did during the teenage years, that 10 to 14, 15-year-old group where we have a lot more pruning and changes and hormones impact the brain in different ways. It happens again with us adults after 30. The impact of testosterone either increases or decreases for men and that has implications for them about their behaviour. 

(20:58): 

So we might find some men feeling frustrated, feeling a bit sad, having a bit of brain fog. Those sorts of things are real and they’re not because they have depression and things like that. It’s just the impact. And they may have depression and things like that, but it’s the impact of hormones changing their brains. It’s something that we need to talk about. 

(21:21): 

The other one is for us women. After 30, things changes and hormones as well. We’ve got perimenopause, menopause, and then postmenopause. For some of us, that can go on for like 20 years. That has a big implication in regards to how our brain changes in regards to how the oestrogen and progesterone affects our gut, affects our heart, inflammation of the brain, all of those things changes. It can look like it changes our personality, where in actual fact it’s a hormone and you can pick it up in blood test and there’s things you can do. It’s the same with men. If their testosterone is low, then there are things that you can go to the doctor, get some tests done, and they can check it out and talk to you about those symptoms. 

(22:09): 

After 30, we have some symptoms that us adults gets very frustrated with and we don’t like to see that we’re making some changes. I’m not as fit as I used to, or my brain is not as sharp as I used to be, but it’s a change of brain as it ages. That is sort of like a slow decline over many, many years, unless we’re doing things and we are doing things every day. We’re working, we’re exercising. We’re doing all the things that I said that we need to do to keep our brains healthy. 

Rosie Schellen (22:39): 

From say zero to one, one to five, what would be happening during that time? 

Sheryl Batchelor (Guest) (22:46): 

The brain has got lots and lots of cells, but not a lot of connections. There are connections, but they’re not strong. The only way you can make them strong is by playing. By playing, by eating right and sleeping and exercising and being curious and just exploring under supervision. We need to have children being supervised all the time because they’re exploring. Will go off to pick up snakes or something like that. So we need to make sure that we’re exploring safely. Every time the kids are learning and unlearning, then the brains are changing and it’s so good. It’s like little sponges at that age where they just want to learn and be curious. Our job is to help them do that in a very safe way. 

(23:34): 

The brain processes information in different ways. We have this thing called brain speed, which means that we have two cells and we have a connection. There’s this thing called myelination that goes over the connections that is like a fatty tissue acid. That needs to be there so it can be really, really fast. For example, when we learn to drive, it’s a different part of the brain to once we learnt how to drive, it’s just automatic. It comes to us. That’s that myelination that goes around it. 

(24:05): 

So the neurological functions is really important that we have two cells and those connections, that myelination is there and strong. As we get older and we don’t use, it’s different and our behaviours change, et cetera. That myelination can go and it slows the brain down, which makes thinking harder. So we want to make sure we keep that nice and healthy. 

(24:26): 

Other neurological things that are tricky is our memory. There’s lots of areas to our memory and memory stored in all different places of the brain, not just one area. But to keep memory super-duper strong, there’s lots of things that we need to be able to do. One of them is making sure that brain speed is good and fast, which comes back to healthy cells and healthy connections. The other one is paying attention. Neurological dysfunction or an executive dysfunction is when our memory’s struggling. Another thing called inhibition control and I’ll come back and explain that. The other one is cognitive flexibility. 

(25:01): 

Inhibition control is, I say it’s our ability to say no to ourselves. Now some people go, “Oh, we should be rhyming that and say yes to ourselves,” but we actually need to be assertive to ourselves and go, “No, I’m not going to have that pack of Tim Tams today. I’m going to have one today and I’m going to have one tomorrow. Oh no, I’m not going to have that extra cup of coffee at the moment because I’m feeling a bit jittery. I’m going to wait until later.” Or, “I’m not going to have that Bushells tea because I’m already on my third and so I’m going to have one later.” So being really assertive to yourself is that inhibition control. It’s saying, “No, I’m not going to do that now. I’m going to wait.” 

(25:36): 

In regards to parenting, we need to do that. When our children are playing and they’re distressed and they’re fighting together, “No, I’m not going to intervene. I’m going to wait and I’m going to watch and I’m going to support the children to get along.” That’s us in waiting for that. That’s a skill that we have to teach children develop and we have to teach ourselves to develop. 

(25:57): 

The other one is cognitive flexibility. Cognitive flexibility means that I can see things from different angles and I can see a problem to know that there’s different solutions. For example, if I always go down this way to work and now there’s a sign and then now the road’s block, then I’m going to use my brain and go, “Okay, I need to think of a different way to get to work.” So I have to problem solve it and see it from a different angle. We need that super-duper strong to be able to go, “These kids are fighting over here. Okay, I need to think of a different way of helping them solve this problem.” 

(26:35): 

Those three areas are really important. There’s lots of neurological functions underneath those things, but basically we want attention, good attention. Say I’m looking at something, I’m not being distracted, but if a ball comes this way, if a child is not safe, I can jump when I need to. Brain speed, I need that to be fast and smart so I can do my job. And memory, I need to be able to remember things to go, “Oh, it’s my son’s birthday tomorrow. I better do something.” 

Rosie Schellen (27:03): 

One of the challenges is around Western concepts and frameworks being imposed. Do you want to talk about that ancient wisdom that you know about? 

Sheryl Batchelor (Guest) (27:12): 

Our Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander ways are diverse as our brains and how the beautiful communities around the rivers and the oceans and the beautiful red dirt that we have use their land for healing in different ways in those connections. So if I think about the red dirt and think about the tree, let’s just think of a beautiful bottlebrush tree. Underneath the dirt is beautiful, nice roots. Those roots need to be super-duper strong. They need to be thick. They need to be connected to other plants and weeds and other things for it to stay really strong. It needs the sun coming down. That’s our brain. Let’s think of the roots that are underneath the soil as the brain’s connections. They need to be connected to others. They need to be thick and they need to be strong to support the brain stem, which is the trunk of the tree, which is down the bottom here. 

(28:15): 

And then from there, we’ve got these beautiful branches and leaves and beautiful bottlebrushes, but they won’t thrive if the roots are not strong. So if we think of our brain, roots need to be strong, lots of connection, lots of cuddles, lots of water, lots of nutrients from the sun and the sea. The trunk is strong. And then all the other things, love, caring. I can go hunting. I can do cooking. I can learn. They’ll be super-duper strong. 

(28:44): 

The other one is a snake one, is when you are out in country, you’ve got sticks. You’re walking around and your brain goes, “God, that’s a snake.” It’s one of the things I actually say in detention is that I say to the kids, “When I walk into detention, I park my car and I walk in.” I said, “My heart goes crazy and my head goes funny and I started getting a bit sweaty.” I said, “Why do you think that’s the case?” And they go, “Oh, because you’re coming into a prison. You’re seeing criminals. We’re going to hack you to death and all these sorts of stuff.” I said, “No, there’s a snake posted there and it scares me.” And the kids go, “Oh, you’re a wuss with them out on country.” And I said, “Oh.” This is the thing is I’ll try to say to them that that’s my brain doing its job or trying to keep me safe. And it’s given me a warning through sweaty hands, through a heart, but I need to take notice of that. 

Rosie Schellen (29:34): 

Can you give me an example where this has really helped you? 

Sheryl Batchelor (Guest) (29:38): 

One of the things that we do in the playgroups is our Deadly Brains Playgroup is teaching parents about brain development for their children, but more importantly, teaching brain development about themselves. We use LEGO as I suppose the attachment tool. So we have these pictures. Imagine this DUPLO is yellow and blue and it’s laminated and we put it in front and we’ve got six-month-old babies that are doing this. And mum’s sitting here or grandma or whoever the adult is and the child is there and we have a picture and we have two blocks. Mum has to wait and let the child explore the blocks and put them in the right colours. We’re helping mum wait. No, let the child explore. Let’s watch, let’s encourage, let’s practice saying really good things about him, clapping and all that sort of stuff. Bubby’s looking at mum, but if bubby gets up and walks away, we’re helping mum, just wait. 

(30:35): 

Serve and return, it’s called. I’m just going to wait until the child comes back. But if they want to go and do another activity, that’s fine, but we’re going to eventually bring them back to this little activity. Then we’re going to pack it up and take it home. During that session then, we had executive function, we had working memory, we had patience and understanding, and then we had mum doing a great job in waiting. And then we’d let the activity go home with mum so that she can practice at home and teach the others, adults around, “Look, look this is what we did. This is what Sheryl did. Yay, let’s do it again.” 

(31:08): 

So serve and return is a way to explain that the way we work with children is reciprocal. It’s the same with adults. Any type of relationship, there’s two people involved. There might be three or four, but most of the time it’s two. It means that I’m just going to watch the adult or watch the person just go over there and play and I’m just going to be around to watch and guide them through that. And then as soon as they look at me, I’m going to go, “Wow.” I’m going to give them the expression that they want to see. “Wow, what are you doing? Can you tell me more about that? That looks pretty deadly.” And then you’ll find the children doing that to you. You’ll find that they’ll come and follow you and you’ll go, “Oh, you want to come with me? Come on, let’s go over here. I’m going to go and do this.” 

(31:53): 

So it’s constantly keeping this edge and flow of interaction that’s happy and smiley and eye contact rather than just going, “No, you just go over there and play. I’m just going to watch this.” No, we can do our phone time later. We can do our TV time later. It’s all about let’s just play together and this is how it looks. 

Rosie Schellen (32:15): 

I just want to thank you so much, Sheryl, for talking with us today. I have learned so much and you’ve got a beautiful way of describing things. I really think this will help the parents. Thank you again. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (32:31): 

Thank you for joining us for today’s episode. If you would like to keep up to date with our latest conversations, we’d love it if you liked and subscribed to our Emerging Minds Families Podcast channel. You can also find us on Instagram, @emergingmindsau, or on Facebook at Emerging Minds Families. 

VO (32:49): 

Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au/families for a wide range of free information and resources to help support child and family mental health. Emerging Minds leads The National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health. 

(33:05): 

The National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health and Aged Care under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.