Transcript for
An interview with Shame

Narrator [00:00:02] Welcome to the Emerging Minds podcast.

Sophie Guy [00:00:08] Today, we would like to introduce a special collection of episodes as part of the Emerging Minds’ podcast series. Usually our episodes feature an academic, practitioner or sometimes a child and family partner, who provide insights into children’s mental health. In this series, we meet the characters Shame, Resilience, and Secrecy, and explore the vital function each play in the supporting and/or diminishing children’s mental health. By understanding more about the role that Shame, Secrecy, and Resilience play in children’s social and emotional wellbeing, we hope to spark new ways of thinking about how practitioners can support children’s mental health.

Sophie Guy [00:00:47] In today’s episode, we are going to be talking to Shame. Shame is an emotion that everyone feels, but that works in different ways and at different times. Shame has many roles and it can be at times misunderstood. There is a healthy role that Shame plays in our lives, which has to do with learning social norms and appropriate behaviour toward one another. Without the right support in early life, however, Shame can turn toxic, becoming an overwhelming emotion and having a negative impact on children’s wellbeing. Shame – thank you for joining us on the Emerging Minds podcast series.

Shame [00:01:25] You’re welcome. I was a little worried about speaking today. I really don’t want to say anything stupid or do anything to make me or Ellie, the little girl I work with look bad. But I thought it was a great opportunity to talk about my work.

Sophie Guy [00:01:41] Yeah, sure it is. Well, to start off with then, could you tell us a bit about Ellie and your work?

Shame [00:01:48] Sure. So I’ve been in Ellie’s life working as her shame since really early on. Even before she could walk, she started turning to me for advice. She had so much to learn back then about what’s right and wrong, about being kind and empathetic and about the things that help her fit in with her family and friends. [Mm hmm]. Ellie’s eight now, and she’s just a really great kid. She’s super smart and she cares a lot about doing a good job at school. She’s a really caring nature and she tries to help her little sister and her mum wherever she can. I like to think as Ellie’s shame, I’ve been helping Ellie as she grows up to learn some of those big life lessons and to become the great kid that she is.

Sophie Guy [00:02:36] OK. And I wonder then, if you could tell us a bit about in what ways does Shame make Ellie a good kid? A lot of people, I think, are probably more familiar with the negative impacts of your work.

Shame [00:02:48] Yeah, I agree. So I think my best work is when I help remind Ellie how to be a good kid, one who’s caring, cooperative and who gets along with others. For example, I’m there for Ellie when her mum gives her the look, you know, the one mums give when a kid is about to do something naughty or silly. And I’m there when her teacher tells her no. Ellie will turn to me in those moments and I help lead her towards what aligns with her idea of what’s right. [OK]. So this started when she’d get told off the things. That’s when I would become present. And so I was really important in helping her work out what was right and what was wrong. When Ellie started school, for example, she was so excited to go to school like the big kids, and she loved school that sometimes she’d get distracted and be more interested in talking loudly with the other kids than with doing what a teacher asked her to do. [Mm hmm.] And when her teacher told her to pay attention, with my help, Ellie remembered to cooperate with the teacher’s instructions.

Sophie Guy [00:03:57] OK, I see. And so when Ellie started school, did you ever get in the way of her making friends or maintaining friendships? How did that work?

Shame [00:04:07] Actually, I helped her to make new friends. Ellie’s still young, so some of my work is about helping her learn and remember what the right things to do are. The social norms, the things that people around her accept, the things she receives praise for, and the things that align with the feeling of being a good kid. But it has been kind of hard for Ellie to be open to making friends lately. She’s been starting to wonder if she’s different, if maybe her family is different to the other kids. Even her teacher told her mum that Ellie seems withdrawn. [Mm]. She doesn’t talk about this or about what happens at her house with anyone, even when her teacher sometimes asks Ellie if she’s OK, she turns to me first for advice and I remind her that she doesn’t want to be different like this or to look bad, so maybe she shouldn’t say anything. [OK]. Ellie’s not sure if the other kids would even want to be friends with someone like her so it’s sometimes easier for Ellie to just sit by herself or not to engage much with the others.

Sophie Guy [00:05:16] OK, um, so I’m wondering what makes Ellie think that the other kids don’t want her to be, don’t want to be her friend? I mean, she sounds like a great kid.

Shame [00:05:27] At home, Ellie overhears things, like the way her dad insults her mum and tells her mum how stupid she is and lists all the things she’s bad at, and sometimes she sees how her dad pushes and hurts her mum. [OK]. When Ellie’s dad is really angry, Ellie will call on me and she’ll wonder what she’s done to make him angry. That’s when I become very big in her life. Sometimes her dad will say things to Ellie about how annoying she is to have around, how she’s a baby that can’t go five minutes without bothering her mum. That’s when Ellie desperately turns to me to find all of the things that she’s doing wrong. Whenever her dad speaks like this, guilt and self blame also become really loud. Sometimes her dad doesn’t even need to be around for guilt and self-blame to start pushing Ellie around, reminding her of all the things that she does to make her parents’ lives harder and to make her dad angry.

Sophie Guy [00:06:32] That sounds really stressful. So how long do you stick around for when Ellie is feeling like this?

Shame [00:06:39] It used to be that I’d just pop in and give Ellie little reminders about whether or not she should be doing some of the things she does, but lately when her dad’s been angry, I’m usually at the forefront of Ellie’s mind. Ellie always wants to be close to her mum. She stays near her all the time and sometimes begs not to go to school so she can stay home with her. Or Ellie would want to sleep in the bed with her mum or her sister at night. That’s when Ellie’s dad will make a comment about Ellie acting like a baby and always getting in the way and annoying everyone. [OK]. When that happens, I can stay around for days repeating the words Ellie’s dad might use about what’s wrong with her, staying around even when she hasn’t specifically called on me. [Mm hmm]. And then again, with self-blame and guilt too, together we start echoing her dad’s words, that if Ellie was different or if she didn’t take up so much of her mum’s time or be so annoying, then maybe her dad wouldn’t be so mad.

Sophie Guy [00:07:44] OK. And so how does this affect Ellie? Does she act differently on the days when you’re around like this?

Shame [00:07:51] Yeah. The ongoing violence and abuse at Ellie’s house. I mean, she’s living with a lot of fear and uncertainty. When she can’t understand things around her and she feels like maybe something is wrong with her or her family, she’s not really herself. As soon as Ellie gets home from school, she has a lump in her throat and she’s really on edge. She’s trying not to take up too much of her mum’s attention or to do anything wrong. Ellie is such a great big sister, too. She worries a lot about making sure her sister is doing the right things and doesn’t get in trouble with their dad. [OK]. But the other day, Ellie yelled at her little sister, and pushed her. She doesn’t even really know why she did it. I mean, she didn’t get much sleep the night before because her dad was really loud and angry and her sister wasn’t letting her play with her favourite toy. So Ellie just shouted at her and pushed her over. And when she saw how sad her sister was after that, and her mum came into the room and told her she shouldn’t hurt her sister, Ellie turned to me and I came back in a big way. Even the next day at school, all of these scary thoughts and feelings stuck around, and Ellie just didn’t have any time or energy for paying attention or playing with her friends.

Sophie Guy [00:09:19] So was Ellie feeling guilty that day? You said that you work with Guilt sometimes, but are you doing the same work in Ellie’s life or how does it differ?

Shame [00:09:28] No, no, we’re not the same. We could both be around in one situation and we often are, but the work we do is really different, especially for Ellie. I mean, Ellie listens to me so much more than Guilt. Guilt reminds Ellie about the things she does wrong, like I do. But what I do is remind her how the things she does are about who she is as a person. Like, when Ellie pushed her sister, she turned to Guilt, too, and Guilt told her that her actions made her sister cry and that she should feel bad about pushing her. And then she turned to me and I reminded Ellie that she’s been doing lots of bad things lately and that she always seems to make people around her sad or mad and that she should feel bad about the person she is becoming.

Sophie Guy [00:10:19] Mm. It does sound like you’ve been busy and in Ellie’s life quite a lot lately. So I’m wondering, are there any times when you’re not so busy?

Shame [00:10:29] Yeah. So sometimes when Ellie’s grandma comes over, she lives out of town, but she comes to visit a few days every now and then. And when she’s here, Ellie’s dad isn’t around so much, he’ll kind of make himself scarce. Ellie’s grandma is really good at noticing Ellie, how much she’s growing and how well her reading’s going. She loves Ellie’s paintings too, her grandma is just completely blown away by how good Ellie is at art. [Right]. Ellie’s grandma tells her how much she loves a picture Ellie drew of them. She noticed when Ellie helped her sister pick up her toys from the floor, the last time she came to visit. And when her grandma tells her these things, Ellie really believes them. She really trusts her grandma. So, yeah, on those days, I don’t really have much to do, actually.

Sophie Guy [00:11:24] OK, well, it kind of sounds like there are a lot of emotions in Ellie’s life and they’re working with it all the time. So I’m wondering, what is it like working with Trust?

Shame [00:11:36] I don’t do a lot of work with trust at the moment. Not much at all, really. I… I guess things that make me and Trust busy can be different, mainly because of Ellie’s self-confidence. When I’m around a lot, and Ellie is calling on me more and more, her confidence is really depleted, and Trust isn’t a very strong feeling for Ellie then. [Mm hmm]. Then there’s other times, like when Ellie’s grandma was over and Ellie fell off a scooter, she grazed her leg and her sister and some other people saw. Ellie was crying because it hurt and she turned first to trust who told her to run to her grandma and everything would probably be OK. [Mm hmm]. Now that I think about it, Trust was really loud that day, and Ellie forgot to ask me for some advice. I could have reminded her how clumsy she’s always being and how she’s been getting lots of things wrong lately

Sophie Guy [00:12:34] OK, and so then would working together more with Trust to make your job less busy?

Shame [00:12:41] Yeah, I suppose so. There were a few times when Ellie was a bit younger, like the time she spilt her whole glass of milk on the floor and didn’t tell anyone or even try and clean it up. Her mum took her aside and talk to her about her actions. She turned to me that day and I listened to Ellie’s mum and helped Ellie understand that this isn’t the kind of kid she wants to be. That trust is there to, and Trust reminded Ellie how much her mum loves her and how she tells her these things to help her. After that, I didn’t have a lot of follow-up work to do. I just worked with Trust in that moment and we sort of handled it together. [OK]. So yeah, I guess that would be better. I would definitely like to be less busy and I think maybe Ellie might like that too.

Sophie Guy [00:13:28] Mm. And what makes you think that?

Shame [00:13:31] Lately, Ellie’s teacher has started to ask her mum some questions about what might be happening to them at home. Ellie’s mum never usually talks about this stuff. [OK]. That’s one thing Ellie and I have learnt that what happens with Ellie’s dad, it’s a big secret. During these times, Secrecy, whom I believe you’ve met, actually. [Yeah, I have]. Yeah. So secrecy recruits me to remind Ellie to keep it hidden from the other kids and her teacher. It’s my job as Ellie’s shame to make sure they don’t know about how it’s maybe her fault, like she believes, and so they don’t know her family is different. But then one day, Ellie’s mum spoke to her teacher a little bit. Trust was around quite a lot that day, too, when they were talking near Ellie. And even though they were talking about something so secretive, Ellie didn’t really call on me. I’ve been thinking about that, actually, I was thinking that Ellie’s mum’s own shame didn’t seem very busy then either. Ellie learns so much from her mum, so maybe that’s why she didn’t ask my advice that day. But Ellie’s teacher and her mum didn’t say anything about Ellie’s behaviour making her dad mad. And that made her feel like someone could understand what’s happening for her and her family and that maybe she doesn’t need to feel so much shame about it. She probably is calling on me a little bit too much, and I’m playing too big of a role in the life of an eight-year-old. Lately, I’ve spent most days constantly responding to her calls to remind her how bad she is. I don’t even think that’s very helpful or particularly true about Ellie. I think she’s, she’s so great.

Sophie Guy [00:15:15] OK, that’s interesting. So then what do you think is the right role for you then, and can you be a helpful, positive influence in her life?

Shame [00:15:24] Some people, they try really hard to completely avoid me, but I don’t think they understand that shame is really important and I can be helpful. I think it’s good that Ellie calls on me, at least sometimes. I play a very important role in helping Ellie not do things that are completely self-serving, like walking away from the spilt milk and leaving it for someone else to clean up or slip on. As someone’s shame and as Ellie’s shame in particular, I could be helpful but maybe also unhelpful at times, too. I seem to be able to affect Ellie’s confidence, which makes me quite a powerful emotion. [Mm]. But when I’m working so hard, and especially when Self-blame, Guilt and Fear are around too, we don’t leave a lot of energy or space for Ellie to call on her other emotions. I’ve heard from other children’s shame that they don’t work anywhere near as hard as I do, and that these children have much happier and carefree times at home and at school. I sometimes worry what might happen for Ellie if she continues to rely on me so much.

Sophie Guy [00:16:37] OK, well, thank you for being so honest, shame and talking to us today. I’m going to wrap it up soon, but just finally, because of your experience, can you help share some of the things that can help kids find the right amount of shame in their life?

Shame [00:16:55] Yeah, sure. So for Ellie, I think some of the most impactful things that keep me at bay and help stop me from being so busy, help me to work in a healthy way, are things like having trusted and supportive adults in her life, like Ellie’s grandma, for example. [Mm hmm]. And having the adults in her life keep their focus on Ellie and on her strengths. So when Ellie’s mum is disciplining her, it really helps when she keeps the focus on what Ellie’s done rather than making it about who she is as a person. And also when she encourages Ellie to talk about her emotions, about what she’s feeling and thinking. And I guess the last thing is talking about those big secrets like family and domestic violence, mental health, trauma, not letting kids like Ellie fill in the blanks themselves.

Sophie Guy [00:18:04] OK. Well thank you for sharing that, Shame, I think that’s really insightful. And thank you very much for your time today.

Shame [00:18:11] No problem, Soph. Thanks for having me.

Narrator [00:18:16] Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au to access a range of resources to assist your practice. Brought to you by the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health, led by Emerging Minds. The National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.