Transcript for
Childhood bullying: When a child engages in bullying behaviour – part two

Narrator (00:02):

Welcome to the Emerging Minds Families Podcast.

Nadia Rossi (Host) (00:05):

Hi, I’m Nadia Rossi and you are listening to an Emerging Minds Families Podcast. Today’s podcast is the first in a two-part series where we’ll take a look at the complex issue of childhood bullying. In these episodes, we are going to explore the dynamics for both children who experience bullying, as well as those who engage in bullying behaviour.

(00:26):

We will be talking with Jessica Staniland. She’s a clinical psychologist and director of counselling and psychological services at Trinity Grammar School, and has extensive experience in supporting children and young people who both engage in and also experience bullying behaviours. I’m really excited to talk with Jess to look at how we can work with the children and young people in our lives to understand more about bullying and support them in creating a culture of empathy, connectedness, and understanding, which will help create a safer and more inclusive environment for all children.

(01:00):

Welcome, Jessica. It is great to speak with you today.

Jess Staniland (Guest) (01:04):

Thanks very much for having me.

Nadia Rossi (Host) (01:05):

Today’s focus is on those who experience bullying, and I wondered if you could start by explaining how do we define bullying?

Jess Staniland (Guest) (01:16):

Yeah, look, I think it’s often quite unclear, and I think everybody has slightly different perspectives on what we regard as bullying. I think for me, bullying is any behaviour that’s mean, that’s unkind, that’s aggressive towards another person. I think some other key points that make a particular behaviour bullying is that there’s a power imbalance, it’s repeated, the behaviour is on purpose, that it’s direct or indirect. And I think also bullying can be verbal, but it also can be physical, it can be psychological, and now there’s cyber bullying as well that we throw in the mix.

Nadia Rossi (Host) (01:52):

How do kids know if the experiences that they’re having requires some help from an adult to manage?

Jess Staniland (Guest) (02:00):

So I think, look, if the bullying is repeated and it’s ongoing, it’s having some impact on their mental or their physical health, I think that’s at a point where it’s really important that somebody intervenes to try and support that child.

Nadia Rossi (Host) (02:14):

And is it common for children and young people to experience bullying?

Jess Staniland (Guest) (02:18):

Sadly, it is very common. I think at the moment statistics sit around 25 to 27% of children and young people will experience bullying at some point in their life. So that’s a quarter or even slightly over a quarter of kids. I think some recent statistics started taking data from age eight. So it’s quite concerning. And I think bullying doesn’t just happen obviously in the school, but go on into workplaces and to university, and there’s taunting, there’s harassment, there’s what other people might term abuse. So I think, yeah, it’s really high prevalence.

Nadia Rossi (Host) (02:51):

If we are focusing on children, what kind of effect can bullying have on a child’s mental health and wellbeing?

Jess Staniland (Guest) (02:59):

Look, it can have really, really broad effects and impacts. So I think some of the things that we tend to see in children who’ve experienced some sense of bullying at school is that they often have difficulty going to school, there might be some school refusal, there might be other forms of reluctance to go outside. Often they tend to have trouble socialising. They get quite anxious around their interactions with other people and become quite hypervigilant. Often we see children having trouble eating and sleeping. We have trouble with their learning and their concentration. And then I think longer term, sometimes bullying can lead to more significant mental health difficulties like diagnoses of anxiety or depression. And then really sadly, it can lead to suicidal ideation or suicide.

Nadia Rossi (Host) (03:45):

I’m wondering if parent is noticing these signs in their child and wanting to help them. And I know there’s that awkward relationship with children and parents where children may not want to share what’s going on with them, or they feel embarrassed or they don’t want the parents to embarrass them. So I’m just wondering, Jess, how should parents broach the subject of bullying with their kids and is it important they do it from an early age?

Jess Staniland (Guest) (04:12):

Yeah, absolutely. Look, I think the biggest thing for parents to realise is that it’s really important from an early age to set up a relationship with your child where they feel safe and comfortable coming to you to discuss whatever’s going on for them, whether that be at school or socially outside of school, and I think that’s certainly needs to start from a really early age. So I think it’s for parents trying to stay calm, being really curious about your child’s life, inquisitive about what’s going on for them. I think if we’re going to talk about bullying specifically, I think I would urge parents not to jump straight into trying to problem solve or jump straight into trying to blame or jump straight into saying, oh, I’m going to go there. I’m going to go to the school and I’m going to tell that child not to touch my child.

(04:55):

You want to do this at a pace that suits your child and you want to help them to figure out actually what’s going to help them rather than you jumping in immediately and trying to solve the problem for them. So I think creating a safe space where they feel comfortable talking to you. And that might be just having a period of time during the day where it feels safe for them to talk to you. Often parents really struggle when the kids get in the car, they don’t want to talk to you at the end of the day. So pick a time that suits them. That might be in the morning, that might be when they go to bed. There’s various times during the day where kids will be more likely to talk with you, bring it up then when you know that they’re feeling more comfortable.

(05:33):

And I think just showing empathy, listening, is the biggest thing that I can recommend to parents trying to create a space where their child feels safe to raise concerns with them. I think if it is significant, I think as parents it’s our responsibility to say, look, this is really significant. This is something that’s really concerning me and it’s really important actually that I speak with the school because I want to make sure that things get better for you.

(05:58):

I think it can help to acknowledge your child’s concern around feeling like they’re going to be a dobber. I think it’s really important that we recognise that it’s not easy when you come home, disclose something to your parents. Your parents go into the school and then you feel like you’re going to look like that dibber dobber. And we often experience that I guess in kids that come to us. I don’t want to be a dobber, the one that has told on this child, I don’t want to say their name concern that they’ll know that I’ve got them in trouble. So acknowledging that and trying to problem solve around how you might be able to talk with the teacher or somebody else that’s relevant without causing them to feel worse.

(06:33):

And I think often I say to other kids that have disclosed something and said, oh, but I don’t want to be the dobber. I don’t want to say the names. And I said, well, you might not be the only one who’s being targeted by this particular child. We don’t know if there’s other kids in the class that are having the same challenges. So I think sometimes just helping them to acknowledge that this may be a much bigger thing.

Nadia Rossi (Host) (06:52):

What kind of behaviours do you think parents could notice in their child if they are being bullying? If they’re experiencing bullying? Are there signs that children may be showing their parents before it gets to that stage of them disclosing something?

Jess Staniland (Guest) (07:07):

Yeah, absolutely. So often you’ll find that at home they may be more reluctant to get out of bed in the morning. They might be having changes in their eating patterns. They might be making excuses around why they shouldn’t be going to school that day. They might have sick days, they might be sort of saying, I can’t go to school because feeling really unwell. They might be saying that they’re worried about going to a particular place at school. It might be the bathroom because the bathroom can sometimes be a place where there’s one way in, there’s one way out, they’re trapped in those circumstances. So it might be that they don’t feel comfortable going to the bathroom at school, therefore they’re coming home and they’re busting.

(07:44):

You might find if there’s cyber bullying or something that’s going on online at home that maybe they’re feeling more upset or agitated at nighttime when they’ve been online or that they’ve completely changed behaviour in terms of their online use. They might be reluctant to talk about school. They might brush over it really quickly and sort of say nothing happened. And that might be a change in the behaviour that they normally exhibit when talking with parents. And then you might just see them appearing more flat in affect or crying or just seeming more generally down.

Nadia Rossi (Host) (08:17):

If they’re telling you that they have been bullied, what’s the best way that a family can support their child who’s being bullied?

Jess Staniland (Guest) (08:25):

So again, I sort of go back to that, creating a really safe space for the child if they do disclose. So trying not to jump into that really quick problem solving, but let the children kind of come up with some of the solutions for themselves. Also, don’t jump to conclusions really quickly. I think that’s really important. You see that often happen with families that they get into that really defensive mode really quickly and jump to conclusions, and I actually think that sometimes that could make it worse. I think try not to ask leading questions as well. I think we just want to hear from the child’s perspective as opposed to leading them in a particular direction.

(08:56):

Empathy, we really want to empathise with our children and validate how hard it was probably to bring it up with you. So I think that’s a really, really important thing. A lot of children don’t find this stuff easy to talk about. So acknowledging that would’ve been really hard to talk about and, gee, thank you for coming to me and it sounds like you’ve been having a really rough time. I think the other thing that I often see in parents is don’t immediately assume that your child has absolutely no part to play in the experience as well. Now obviously it is the case for some, it is not the case for others. But I think we can easily jump in and be like, my child is this perfect angel. And sometimes what we find out is actually that the child speaks up when perhaps they’ve done something to agitate somebody else, and then the result is this unfortunate interaction. So don’t make assumptions. Look, that’s not obviously always the case, but try not to make assumptions.

(09:49):

I think the next step then is helping them then to problem solve. So what are the next steps? I guess consider their age. If they’re really young, how much adult direction do they need? If your child is in primary school, particularly the early stages of primary school, they need you to advocate for them because you are their parent. But if you had a child who was in high school, maybe actually that they prefer that mom and dad stay out of it and that they go to the right person at school themselves. So having a think about that. It might be the school counsellor that they go to might be another trusted adult at school, your advisor. It might be a teacher that’s teaching that particular class where the bullying is happening.

(10:30):

If the child’s really reluctant to talk with you, the other thing to consider is there somebody else within the family or a friend that they might be willing to talk to. So that might be an aunt or an uncle. It might be that they be to talk with a neighbour, who knows. But either way, we want to try and encourage them to talk with some trusted adult so that they feel like they’re supported and that they have a bit of direction to where to from there.

Nadia Rossi (Host) (10:54):

And Jess, I feel like sometimes or in a lot of the cases there may be some confusion from the child around the bullying and why the bullying is occurring. So Jess, could you talk about some of the strategies you suggest for parents or even that trusted adult that the child may go to help the child understand why the bullying might be occurring?

Jess Staniland (Guest) (11:17):

Yeah, absolutely. So I think just sitting down with your child and helping them to reflect on why other people do engage in bullying behaviour and trying to do a bit of perspective taking. So I guess reflecting on the fact that often there’s a power imbalance or that the child is trying to seek out, sometimes it’s revenge. Sometimes it’s they’re have something else going on for them at home. Sometimes they’re just really wanting to make friends and they are going about it the wrong way and don’t really realise sometimes they’re jealous and so that could potentially be contributing to it. Sometimes they’re just having trouble generally feeding in.

(11:57):

I think it’s really important for children to be able to reflect that often it’s not just about them. And I think that’s sometimes how we feel. It’s all about me. I’ve done something wrong. I’m being targeted. But I think it’s really important for us to help our children to be able to reflect on the fact that sometimes there’s a lot more going on for this child than perhaps you realise.

(12:17):

The other thing just to think about is look, there’s quite a possibility that the other child has difficulties themselves. That might be that they have learning difficulties. It might be that they have social difficulties, they might have mental health difficulties. We don’t know these things. So I think just being open and realising that it’s not necessarily a them thing, but we need to think about why this child might actually be behaving the way they are.

Nadia Rossi (Host) (12:41):

I guess providing a bit of a perspective on the whole situation to the child, even though they might be going through such a difficult moment in time.

Jess Staniland (Guest) (12:49):

I guess the other thing is just realising that in bullying situations often the bully is trying to get a certain reaction. If I push this button here, what reaction am I going to get from this child here? And I think if parents can chat with their children about how they’re after a certain reaction, so if we give them that reaction, it’s likely to keep going. But if we give them a different reaction, reaction that perhaps they’re not expecting, it may be that some of that bullying behaviour dissipates a bit because they get bored. So then we talk about the reaction of walking away, not paying attention to it. That’s not always easy. We get it. That’s much easier said than done. But sometimes using humour as a response can be sort of really unexpected for these children and they’re like, what? I wasn’t expecting that at all. Or jokingly kind of agreeing with what’s being said, not because they actually agree, but just as a way of giving a different response. So sometimes that can be really helpful for parents to chat through with their children to help understand how the bullying dynamic works.

Nadia Rossi (Host) (13:53):

Jess, when it comes to schools, because we are talking about children and the majority of their bullying experiences would be within the school environment, what role can school play in supporting children who are experiencing bullying?

Jess Staniland (Guest) (14:07):

The core kind of role, I guess of the school is really around keeping your child safe, that’s the biggest role that they have to play. Providing counselling support, most schools will have access to a counsellor, and I think it’s really important that we help facilitate counselling in these times where these children are experiencing some bullying. I think school have a big role to play in working with parents around this stuff. I think you want to see the parents and the school as a team and you want to see them working together to try and come up with a solution.

(14:36):

I think the other thing is we have a really lovely opportunity at school where there is numerous classes of students every day where we can provide an opportunity where appropriate to help facilitate that kind of rupture and repair process. So if there is situations where there has been some bullying or there’s been a disagreement or there’s been challenges engaging socially between two people, ultimately in life, we really want to help children to recognise that there can be ruptures in relationships but we can repair them and how we go about doing that, how we go about repairing relationships, forgiveness, that kind of process where it’s appropriate. So I think school has a part to play in that as well.

(15:15):

But you know what? Sometimes that doesn’t happen straight away and that’s okay. Sometimes we need quite a lot of space between an incident and getting to that kind of repair stage. So in the meantime, look, if a child is at the point where they’re refusing to come to school, they’re not feeling safe at school, I think a school has a responsibility around how they manage that. And that might be around changing class placements so they’re not constantly in each other’s face all the time. It might be around ensuring there’s appropriate discipline when there’s needed to be and consequences for behaviour. And to create a safe space for this person who’s experienced bullying to go to when they do feel like they’re under threat.

Nadia Rossi (Host) (15:55):

I’m wondering, as a parent, what are the first steps to engaging with the school if their child is experiencing bullying?

Jess Staniland (Guest) (16:02):

I would encourage parents not to be concerned about approaching the school, I think it’s really important, and I think ultimately the bullying is occurring at school there’s a very high chance that the teachers are not aware of it. So I just would encourage parents not to shy away from having that conversation. I would really strongly encourage parents to have that conversation face-to-face. I think these aren’t conversations that can happen via email or even just over the phone. I think to give the indication to the school that you’re quite concerned and that this is something to warrant a real discussion, you don’t want to do it over an email, and you certainly don’t want to do it in a rushed end of day conversation because you’re not going to get your point across that actually, my child’s really struggling. So I think I would just encourage you to really make the time to make an appointment to see the teacher.

(16:49):

I think the biggest thing to be aware of as a parent is we are always going to be advocates for our child. That’s our role as parents is to be an advocate for your child. But at some point when we go into these meetings, we don’t want to go in there throwing blame around, again because we don’t necessarily know that our child has, they’ve done no wrong in the situation. So I think really important just to raise awareness and say, hey, my child has come home and said this as opposed to Johnny is bullying my child by doing this every day you, you’re not doing anything to fix it. So I think just taking it as an opportunity to raise awareness and to see that beginning conversation as a bit of an alignment, like I really want to work closely with the school here to come up with some solutions.

(17:32):

The other thing that families can do just to make sure that they get an outcome is reflect back to the teacher, hey, we had this discussion today. This is what we talked about. When could I expect some follow-up? Do you think we could meet again in two weeks or so and just have a chat about how things are going? Or is it that maybe we email at the end of the week and say how things have gone? Just so that you are both on the same page. You have an agreement and you can feel safe or confident that there’s some progress being made.

Nadia Rossi (Host) (18:01):

And that’s great, Jess, I think that’s really great tools for our parent audience to know and to take with them. In your experience and in your knowledge of working with children and people, how can we promote empathy, respect, and inclusivity in our children?

Jess Staniland (Guest) (18:19):

And I think this is a really, really important point, and I guess links back to what you were talking about earlier around do we need to start to do some of these things early? Do we need to start to have these conversations early with our children? Absolutely. I think so. And I think the biggest thing for us is that as parents, we start to have conversations around everybody has strengths and differences early. So everybody has different strengths and weaknesses. And I think just as people have red hair, blonde hair, blue eyes, green eyes, that sort of thing. Some people are really good at sports. Some people are really good academically. Some people struggle socially or some people struggle with their behaviour. And I think having those conversations early is really important so you don’t have your child coming home and not understanding, I guess, why there might be somebody that is presenting very differently than perhaps them and their friends.

(19:11):

So having that conversation, there’s a lot of really good storybooks around there, like Everybody Is Different, and I think even just starting with that at an early age is really important. The other thing just to loop in there, and again, there’s some good storybooks out there on these sorts of things, but every human has the right to respect. So what does respect look like? And talking about respect at home, talking about the behaviours that encompass respect at home is really important. And just giving those concrete examples as well.

Nadia Rossi (Host) (19:39):

I think we touched on this earlier, Jess, but I was wondering if you could discuss how bullying has changed over the years? How have you seen it, I guess unfortunately, evolve?

Jess Staniland (Guest) (19:51):

I think for me, the biggest thing that has changed with bullying over the years is that there are so many more avenues for bullying now than there ever used to be. So it used to be you are at school, you’re being faced with a particular child that’s not being very nice to you, but you go home and you’ve got a safe environment where you’re at home. Now with cyber bullying sort of on the rise, there’s almost more bullying that goes on online. And I think that the challenge is that you almost have this different persona when you’re online and people feel like they can be somebody that they’re not online. And that certainly has some positives because I think that there are some people who struggle to socialise face-to-face and they can actually engage socially online. However, it does open us up to more bullying that does occur in an environment that is nowhere near as regulated as a face-to-face environment.

(20:42):

The internet has caused a change in bullying. It’s much broader reaching. It lasts for much longer throughout the day. And I think now there are these apps like Snapchat and TikTok, which are absolutely on the rise and I think, sadly, a lot of the bullying happens on those apps. And they are being made by developers who have a really good understanding of what adolescents and even young to upper primary school kids are looking for in terms of engagement with these types of programmes. So they get hooked in and sadly because they’re so hooked in, once the bullying occurs it’s almost hard to detach. So I think that’s been a massive change, and I think it’s something that parents are still grappling with and will continue to grapple with because every day there’s a new app and there’s a new programme.

(21:31):

I would encourage parents to be really across what systems their internet provider has around wifi switching off at a certain time, what sort of nanny apps they have that kind of blocks certain content. I would be really big on trying to monitor internet use of their children when they are engaging in internet use, trying to watch them, making sure that nothing too significant is going on. But again, coming back to that, creating a safe space for your child to be able to talk with you, being that person they can go to and come to where they don’t feel judged, they don’t feel pushed, they feel like you’re an open ear and probably arm as well, would be really important so that if something does happen, you are likely to be the person that they’ll come to and they’ll be open and honest with it. Because I think if you are there going, you can’t have any use or I’m angry at you for even engaging or thinking about engaging, they’re less likely to come to you when something awful goes on. So I think that kind of openness, empathy, validation, all of that is really, really important so that children do feel like they can come to you and you’re a safe person.

Nadia Rossi (Host) (22:38):

So I think they are such great strategies. And you’re right, the internet is not going anywhere, so it’s how do parents parent alongside it and alongside the developing app.

Jess Staniland (Guest) (22:49):

I’d encourage parents to go along if their school puts on any workshops. There are some really good speakers doing the rounds at the moment around managing child and adolescent use of the internet and managing the apps and that sort of thing. So I think I would encourage parents to jump at those opportunities when they do come up.

Nadia Rossi (Host) (23:06):

I’m wondering if you could leave our audience with one main point that the parents listening would take away with them today, what would that be?

Jess Staniland (Guest) (23:16):

I think my biggest point probably is around starting from a really young age, just creating a safe space for your child to talk with you at a time that suits them. So giving your child an opportunity to engage with you each day where it’s really nonjudgmental, it’s child-led, it suits them, you’re not trapping them in a car. And that just gives you the opportunity to have those discussions around modelling empathy, everybody’s different, talking about respect, talking about forgiveness and all of that sort of stuff. You’ve got that space where you’ve built the relationship with your child so that down the track, it’s going to be much easier for you to manage some of these situations like when they’re being bullied because they’re more likely to come to you.

Nadia Rossi (Host) (24:01):

Thank you so much for sharing that with us today. It’s been great talking to you.

Jess Staniland (Guest) (24:06):

No worries. Thanks again.

Narrator (24:10):

Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au/families for a wide range of free information and resources to help support child and family mental health. Emerging Minds leads the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health. The Centre is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.