Transcript for
Decolonising psychology – part two
Professor Pat Dudgeon AM (00:00): Decolonised psychology is making space for Indigenous knowledge systems as well. That’s about a holistic approach to mental health and wellbeing. So in relation to their connection to their family and kinship, to their community, to their culture, to their country, to their ancestors and spirituality. And around that model, and you might’ve seen it out there, is the factors or the forces that are impacting on us as people and a group of people all the time. And they are that history of colonisation. So historical determinants, social determinants, which impact on everyone, where we live, our employment, our income, experiences of racism. So social determinants are a part of that. Cultural determinants and political determinants.
Jasmine Bald (00:55): Welcome to the Emerging Minds podcast.
(01:00): Hello and welcome back to the second episode in a two-part podcast series on decolonising psychology. We will continue our conversation today with Professor Pat Dudgeon AM, Belle Selkirk and Dr Joanna Alexi, a few of the many inspirational leaders in Australia who are challenging and redefining dominant western paradigms in psychology as part of the Australian Indigenous Psychology Education Project. We will hear about the history of the project and the resilience and determination of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander leaders who have persisted over many years to include Indigenous world knowledges into psychology curriculum.
(01:36): Welcome back and thank you for continuing this wonderful conversation. Let’s get straight back into it. I wonder if you could describe in your own words what a decolonised psychology system looks like, Aunty Pat?
Professor Pat Dudgeon AM (01:49): A decolonised psychology is not throwing out the baby with the bath water. So there’s some elements of psychology that are important to us that we need to keep, but it is taking a critical view on psychology and the interventions that we do. Are they suitable for all people? I’d be asking because we talk to a lot of psychologists in the field working sometimes in cities, in remote areas, in prisons. And as a professional, I’d like to think that my practise and my approaches as professional and useful as possible, but there are still some interventions and some approaches that are needed, no matter what.
(02:30): But for me, a decolonised psychology is making space for Indigenous knowledge systems as well. And a particular one that I’ve been involved in is the social emotional wellbeing approach, and that’s about a holistic approach to mental health and wellbeing. And it’s deeper, Belle talked about something was missing earlier. This one’s a deeper, this probably helps fill up some of those missing bits. So a social emotional wellbeing approach isn’t just about the self in relation to their physical self and their mental self, but it’s also in relation to their connection to their family and kinship, to their community, to their culture, to their country, to their ancestors and spirituality.
(03:20): And around that model, and you might’ve seen it out there, is the factors or the forces that are impacting on us as people and a group of people all the time. And they are that history of colonisation. So historical determinants, social determinants, which impact on everyone, where we live, our employment, our income, experiences of racism. So social determinants are a part of that. Cultural determinants and political determinants. So the great disadvantage we see in Indigenous communities hasn’t come out of nowhere. That’s still part of the colonising and racist, institutionalised racism that was a part of colonisation.
(04:07): So we’re seeing that disadvantage silencing, excluding as part of that colonial story. So that for us, for me in particular, that model is good because it recognises those other elements, but it also talks about working on the strengths of Aboriginal people as well. So we come from a very strength-based approach.
(04:28):
This is just one model. There’s lots of big picture models emerging, there’s lots of activities, healing activities that are emerging. A lot of Aboriginal people, Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people are now stepping up and finding their own knowledges and sharing that, using that to heal and to recover.
(04:50): So I think it is exciting. There’s a whole range of different activities that are happening. But I think for us, and we tested that model and it was developed from a legacy of Aboriginal health professionals who’d worked on it, but we actually tested it. We took it to Indigenous conferences and presented it there, and people loved it. They felt that they could relate to it. Had they not liked it, they would’ve told us so very quickly. So I think that it’s great and it certainly can shift the way notions of selfhood are perceived, but also how we give services. What does a good social emotional being service look like? What would social emotional being interventions look like?
(05:36): And it’s not just for us. I know that some Indigenous psychs have used that model with their non-Indigenous clients as well. And I always thought, well, would the connection to country be a problem or a challenge? And this particular psych said, no, we are all of the earth, so we dig our toes into the soil and we are part of this earth. And I think if we had a greater appreciation and love for earth, then that would have implications on how we view planetary wellbeing and climate change. So these models are not just for our own people, for everyone.
Jasmine Bald (06:16): Thank you for sharing that, Aunty Pat, what an amazing project to be involved in be. How would you describe it?
Belle Selkirk (06:23): When I try to explain what social and emotional wellbeing feels like, I like to, first of all, I usually explain to people that when we look at their SEWB wheel, it’s in those pie slices, but they’re not dissected like that. They move and intersect and breathe and flow with each of those domains, including that self. And so it isn’t about individualism and siloing of these different domains. It’s about integrating, and I say integrating in the same breath, in the same moment, that’s what that holistic interconnection is.
(07:01): And of course, we can focus on one aspect if that’s where we need to do some strengthening, but it’s important to feel that it’s all in the one movement. And if we kind of think of it in that way, it kind of starts to give us a little bit of a symbol of that, so it’s all together.
(07:17): And Indigenous psychologist, Mary Goslett will talk about that relational self and that relational self isn’t that those domains are exist for me, I exist in relation to all of these things and we move and breathe together and we exist together. And that’s that interconnected holism.
(07:36): And the example that I like to give to people where I often really do feel that viscerally in my body is I love to hike. And when I’m walking on country and hiking on country, I notice a real shift within my body and my nervous system. And I notice that my attention is paying attention to less of that cognitive chit chatter, but actually to what’s happening in Mother Nature. I’m noticing more what the weather’s doing. I’m noticing more what the animals are doing at that time of year. And I’m noticing that also my brain likes to remember Noongar language a lot easier when I’m in that mode. And I describe it as like an effortlessness. There’s an ease that sits there. There’s a grounded and a connectedness and almost like you are with an old friend or you’re having a hug or there’s just a gentleness that sits there.
(08:30): And so if I see something happening in the bushes, my mind very easily might come up with a Noongar word that goes to that. So that speaks to me of that interconnection with all those domains happening in the same breath and happening at once. It’s not forced. It’s kind of happening, through me, in with me, and who knows what songlines or ancestors that are happening around me or not, I don’t know. But I like to think is part of that integration that happens and all I’m doing is going for a walk on country. But actually there’s a lot of things happening in that one experience, and it’s why I love doing it.
Jasmine Bald (09:08): Joanna, I’d really be interested to hear from a non-Aboriginal perspective, because I know it’s kind of a lifelong journey, isn’t it? You work within a system and then you’ve had to basically unlearn that. Do you want to talk to me a little bit about that?
Joanna Alexi (09:21): Yeah, absolutely. That’s a great question. Yeah, it’s a lifelong journey, as you mentioned, of actually taking on board new knowledges as well as unlearning. But also I think unlearning in a system that still, for the most part, can reinforce some challenging processes. So even if I’m thinking about research, it takes time, particularly within this field to actually build relationships and to be in the space. And I think even just thinking about some of those system changes that need to happen to also reinforce that good process and that is important.
(09:59): I was really fortunate to be a part of the cultural exchange program, which coming into the research space, it was a program that was developed with Angela Ryder at the Langford Aboriginal Association and through longstanding relationships that I had with Angela. And this was really a program that was set up in the transforming Indigenous mental health and wellbeing team that I work within to help the new researchers to actually gain not just a cultural awareness, but actually really that trigger point of that lifelong learning in cultural responsiveness and in working in culturally responsive ways within Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander context and research.
(10:42): And so we were just so fortunate. So the way the program was set up was that there were several Noongar elders that Angela had connected us to. And we would go to the Langford Aboriginal Association Friday, I believe it was, Friday afternoon, and just be able to yarn with the local Noongar elders that Angela had connected us with. And really through those conversations, it wasn’t, I think initially the plan was to have some structure around topic areas, but actually the conversation had just flowed so naturally and beautifully that it was just an experience that you just can’t pick up out of a textbook. It really took that experiential learning of what the experience was like for these elders growing up in Australia when they did, all of the horrible experiences that they had gone through, and also so much, I guess, light and positivity that they were bringing that they could see for the future.
(11:37): And it was that, I suppose that kind of discrepancy or that, the way those two aspects melded to really bring so much hope that we can actually change things and support more cultural responsiveness and better research processes. That was one of the big things was that there was a comment like, oh, research that we know has actually done some really harmful things. Like, we want this process to help you to actually support better research and for that to be safe for Aboriginal people to be in the space.
(12:10): And so yeah, that was actually just the most profound experience. I think it’s just changed the trajectory of understanding firstly, and then for myself to be self-reflecting and critically conscious of the things that I’m doing. So I’m always picking up on things like I might say something and think, oh, actually hold on a minute. I don’t think that was quite right and that didn’t land where I wanted it to and what’s that about? And actually reflecting on the process for myself so that the next time something like that comes up, I can actually do it with integrity in a way that is going to make someone else feel safe in my presence. So it’s really transformed, yeah, the way I’m, I think, and the processes that I take.
Jasmine Bald (12:51): I’m going to ask you a final question, actually two. So Belle, this one’s for you. So seeing the amazing leaders that have come before you, the social and emotional wellbeing framework, and the strong leaders that have supported that, how will you take their tenacity going forward into your work in the future? The constant fight, the ongoing frustration of working within systems, becoming that next generation of leaders and holding what the elders and the Aunty Pats have laid before us?
Belle Selkirk (13:18): It’s a really thought-provoking question, and I hope I do it some justice and probably my mind will keep thinking on this actually, now that you’ve planted that seed. But I think what comes immediately comes up for me is working in psychology, whether it’s in our communities or research spaces or policy spaces, these are hard but important jobs. And it’s fraught with lots of challenges and difficulties, but also some really heartfelt strengths and successes that gets you really excited and gives you enthusiasm.
(13:55): And we can easily get lost in, I guess, the kind of colonial ways of doing things in these kind of high pressured, fast-paced world. And I find that there’s been some really humbling moments when I’ve been able to listen to some beautiful old people and our elders and coming back to some of those cultural teachings and walking in those good ways with relationships, with respect, with humility. Those cultural teachings have really helped me keep my groundedness in the tough work days, in the high pressure days, or even the days that are hard when you’re hitting some of the barriers or you’re not quite getting the movement in projects that you want to, or working with communities with really tough stuff. And we’ve said this a few times in our teams, but Indigenous knowledges is not in the outcome it’s in the process.
(14:51): So if we walk well and we remember those cultural teachings and that groundedness, we’ll get there where we need to go, and we know that we’ve gotten there with good integrity. So that’s what I want to keep taking forward with myself is walking in those cultural ways that our old people teach us and can’t really go wrong there.
Jasmine Bald (15:11): Beautiful. You’ve summarised that so beautifully. Thank you. And I suppose to finish off, what are your hopes for the future in this work?
Belle Selkirk (15:19): So I would love to see a future where we have a very robust, thriving Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander psychology workforce where we’re a big collective with diversity within that. And then it’s a cohesive collective in that there’s respect and celebration amongst us because we all are wanting to do this really beautiful work together, even with differences of opinions or philosophies. That’s okay. But I’d love to see a Indigenous psychology workforce in Australia that where we working together and we’re aspiring young people to come into our profession and knowing that they’ve got leaders and mentors and that they’re loved and supported to come into this profession and to do the work that they want to do with their families and the community. So good work that they will do. So that’s what I’d love to see.
Jasmine Bald (16:18): And for you, Joanna?
Joanna Alexi (16:20): You summarised that so beautifully, I’m not sure what to add to that, other than to say that I would really just love to see, echoing Belle’s sentiments as well around just an inclusive psychology that embeds Indigenous knowledges and actually really values it as part of being able to think critically about how we work with people and those processes that we’re taking. And I think a big one as well is to see that workforce shift and that we’re creating culturally safe spaces for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples to be in and to want to be able to access care because they know they’re going to receive culturally safe care. So that would be just a really important one coming out of the education space.
Jasmine Bald (17:05): Excellent. And Aunty Pat, I’ve got to add this one in for you in closing. So when you started this work, what were your hopes then?
Professor Pat Dudgeon AM (17:14): When I started, I think my hopes were just to have some Indigenous presence in the discipline. It’s far exceeded what I could envisage. And as we were talking, I was thinking of other examples. For instance, in the School of Psychological Science at Curtin University at one stage, and I don’t know if they’ve ever replaced this person, but they had a cultural consultant. So he was a Noongar mental health professional who was there for staff and students, and he loved his work. I remember meeting with him and I just would’ve never envisaged that they would’ve done that, made that possible. So I hope they did, I know he moved on to another job, so I hope he was replaced by someone. I think that gives our people an entree into the area too. Our elders, our mental health professionals.
(18:10): But what I’d like to see beyond myself, is where everyone has access to mental health wellbeing programs and services. So no matter, Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people, non-Aboriginal people, that if you think that you need to do a back to country camp, you can go to your local AMS or whatever it is, and book in to have that experience. If you just want to have your soul renewed, to getting, if you need to get medication, if you need to go away and heal, there should be a whole range of different services. Some of them will be Western origin, but some will be distinctly Indigenous. So I’d like to see the programs that are starting to emerge, not only available for Aboriginal people, but for all people as well. And I think that’s a possibility. So we should all have a number of different options to keep us safe and to ensure that we flourish as human beings with a deep respect, as Belle said, a respectful consideration of each other and our planet.
Jasmine Bald (19:24): What an amazing conversation. Thank you all so very much. And to all our listeners, if you would like to learn more about this work, there are interactive papers and fact sheets that accompany these podcasts. Please visit the Emerging Minds website to learn more at www.emergingminds.com.au.
Narrator (19:45): Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au to access a range of resources to assist your practise. Brought to you by the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health, led by Emerging Minds. The National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.