Transcript for
Dismantling interpersonal racism to support culturally diverse families
Julie Ngwabi (00:00): Attending to power imbalances and harnessing cultural wisdom and expertise are things that can be helpful. And also practicing cultural humility, being able to listen and to learn from the other person as an expert of their culture and being open to challenge your own individual and personal biases, and being able to unlearn previously held beliefs that might be wrong or harmful and be willing to learn new from this other person from a different culture. So cultural humility and the ability to learn unhelpful beliefs and learn new helpful ones are really important.
Narrator (00:51): Welcome to the Emerging Minds podcast.
Amanda Kemperman (00:56): Hi everyone, and welcome to this Emerging Minds podcast. As a part of our work at Emerging Minds, we’re privileged to partner with a range of leaders who support the mental health of children and families in Australia. As a part of the development of our recent online course understanding children’s mental health in culturally diverse communities, I spoke with practitioners about racism, discrimination, and bias, and what practitioners can do about it.
(01:22): Throughout this podcast, you’ll be hearing from Julie Ngwabi, who’s currently the Senior Child Mental Health Advisor at Emerging Minds; Etty Garabelli, who’s a Project Officer previously working with the Australian Refugee Association and Relationships Australia’s Peace Program; and Steph Shavin, mental health accredited Social Worker currently working with the Victorian Transcultural Mental Health service. Julie, Etty, and Steph provided their insights on how practitioners could address the impact of racism on children. They discussed the concept of structural discrimination and its implications for professionals in the field. The practitioners highlighted the importance of recognising white privilege as a crucial aspect of knowledge for individuals working with various systems and institutions. Here’s Julie with some insights she shared about her observations of white privilege at play.
Julie Ngwabi (02:19): I think one of the things that might happen if a practitioner lacks cultural awareness, in addition to imposing their own dominant culture and assuming that that’s how everyone sees the world, it means that they’re not aware of the role that their own privilege is playing in this interaction because it means they’re not aware of the journey of the other person who is called a minority. They lack the same privilege. And when we talk about privilege, sometimes people talk about, what are you talking about? I’ve got these problems, A, B, C, D as well. That’s not the kind of privilege we’re talking about. We’re saying that because you’re a practitioner from a dominant culture, there are some barriers that you never have to navigate compared to another person who is called a minority. So just being aware that you’ve got some privileges that you might take for granted that are actually barriers for the other person is helpful, this actually helps you to be more understanding and to show empathy that my journey is different from this other person so this is how I can work together with them to help them.
Amanda Kemperman (03:43): As they delve deeper into the topic of white privilege, the conversation naturally transitioned to an exploration of white fragility and its role in perpetuating systemic inequalities. I asked Steph about the concept of white fragility and what it means to her.
Steph Shavin (03:59): There are two key components of white fragility that I have found helpful as a white bodied practitioner working largely with families and communities from cultural backgrounds different to my own, and they are white fragility draws attention to the fact that racism is embedded in the structures, institutions, and systems upon which our society is founded and created and functions. It is embedded in the very fabric of society.
(04:29): Further, white fragility offers a common language for white bodied practitioners particularly to name their discomfort, talking about racism, their fears of getting it wrong, making mistakes, doing harm, and through this reduces that sense of isolation of I’m the only one who’s afraid of this, and creates space for practitioners to come together and have conversations about how they might step into anti-racist positions of practise. I need to be attuned to the ways racism and power embedded in the very fabric of our society and to attend to the fact that I hold power and privileges through my professionalism, through my race, through my access to education, many other forms that children and families I’m working alongside may or may not have access to. And it is my responsibility as a practitioner in that relationship where I hold more power to ensure that my practise is attending to those power dynamics.
Amanda Kemperman (05:26): Steph goes on to talk about how she attends to her practitioner racial privilege.
Steph Shavin (05:32): I’m not sure that it’s ever possible to entirely medicate practitioner racial privilege. For me, what is important is to be attuned to the complex matrix of power dimensions present and to take responsibility for attending to those in an ongoing way throughout my relationship with a particular family. So it’s not one practice or one action that enables us to mitigate practitioner racial privilege, but a series of ongoing micro practices that we are interweaving into our everyday practice that supports us to attend to the various power dimensions present.
(06:10): One other component I think that is useful for us to take from white fragility is being able to hear without defensiveness when we have transgressed our racial privilege, and also holding that is true, and being able to not position communities from cultural backgrounds that are different to our own as passive recipients of racism. I think white fragility is a useful concept, but where it does position racialised communities passively, I think we risk perpetuating the dominant racial power dynamics.
Amanda Kemperman (07:02): Steph also spoke about the relationship between white privilege and decolonising practice.
Steph Shavin (07:08): I think that in a sense, white fragility works alongside decolonising practice for me in the sense that understanding that racism is inherently embedded in the fabric of our society and therefore in my ways of thinking and knowing and being and doing supports me to reflect on how what I’m bringing to an encounter is shaped very much by my own position and social location. And so that holds me accountable to always holding my perspective and position lightly and tentatively, and creates space for me to recognise that the people I’m working alongside bring their own ways of thinking and knowing and being and doing, and allows me to engage with families to understand their ways of thinking, knowing, being and doing.
(08:03): So decolonising practice to me is recognising that the perspective I bring comes from a Western health lens, mental health lens, medical model, social determinants of health perspective, and that there are many ways of knowing, being, and doing. And what I bring is one way of knowing, being, and doing that might be useful, but that the children and family that I’m working alongside will bring other ways of knowing, being, and doing. And what I’m seeking to do is to bring these various ways of knowing together so that we can create a path forward that is resonant and useful for that specific family.
Amanda Kemperman (08:44): I spoke with Julie about how she renegotiates power in the client practitioner relationship and here’s what she had to say.
Julie Ngwabi (08:52): So just being aware of those power imbalances and being willing to share the power as well. And the other thing, we already touched on it is being aware that as a professional, you bring professional expertise. The other person who is called, they bring their cultural expertise, they bring their cultural wisdom, they bring their lived experience which can actually be harnessed and can be helpful in supporting them because they’ve drawn on these before to problem solve as they journey through in life. So harnessing those can actually help them again, in this particular stage.
Amanda Kemperman (09:34): Steph also acknowledges the influence of her cultural background on her perspectives, recognising the potential for assumptions to arise and expresses her mindfulness in navigating these dynamics.
Steph Shavin (09:46): So I think maybe a good example is to think about assessment when we’re working alongside say parents and a child or children to understand what it is they’re seeking from our service or for me as a practitioner, we’re potentially exploring a whole lot of areas of their experience and life and things that are happening for them at the moment. It’s being really mindful of how I’m listening and hearing what parents and children are telling me, and how I’m making sense of that and being really conscious that how I’m making sense of that comes from a specific lens that I bring that is very much influenced by a Western cultural perspective. And so rather than jumping to particular assumptions that what I’m hearing and the way I’m making sense and meaning out of something is the only way, it then opens up the possibility for me to share what I’m thinking, to see how that resonates to be curious and ask how families make sense of particular problems, what they understand to be the primary issues, to explore with them how they would like to address those problems.
Amanda Kemperman (10:52): Within the context of these discussions, Julie and Etty discussed the topic of addressing instances of racism with those they worked with. They proceeded to share their insights on various approaches to consider when responding to families who experienced racism. Here’s what they had to share.
Julie Ngwabi (11:08): I would encourage practitioners to call it what it is. It’s racism, there’s no other way of describing it to lessen the impact. Practitioners have to call it what it is in order to address it effectively and correctly. So in order to support the children, they also have to create that safe space. So I guess adopting a trauma-informed approach to a child or a family that has disclosed racism is very helpful. So creating that safety, working alongside the child and the family to support them, collaborating with them, giving them choice and options and being genuine and authentic as well. Just having that trauma informed approach will really help, and following the right channels of addressing racism. If it’s at school, following the right channels as per policies on how you address racism without doing any shortcuts, without trying to minimise it or to deny it, but to really address it authentically as per policies in a way that will relieve or release the stress on the child and the family. So I think really being authentic and following the right procedures.
Etty Garabelli (12:36): I think for people from mainstream services to respond to racism, it’s important for two different things. Sometimes it could be, first of all, we need to educate ourselves to understand what racism really is and how those microaggressions as well that can affect that person’s sense of safety and belonging here. And by listening to their stories, I think that we’ve got two roles, and I always say, even for me, you become an advocate, not because you set out to be an advocate, but because you realise the need for advocacy.
(13:11): By listening to those stories, it’s not that conversation doesn’t just stay in the room. In a very safe way, you can take those examples into other services and have that conversation with your colleagues and challenge when they say something that you realise is causing harm on another person’s wellbeing. They might not even realise that it’s a racist remark because it’s probably something that we have said for a very long time, but it’s only through challenging each other as professionals that we learn to create a safer environment.
(13:45): When there’s a trust, they will start to tell you, especially if they find that you’re providing a service that is actually meeting their needs, then they will share all the times when that didn’t happen. I think it’s important for them to know what their rights are and also for us to identify when is this something that needs to be reported and how can we do that? We need to get that person’s permission, but also getting them to know their rights and how they can advocate for themselves as well, because we’re not always going to be with them. And it’s about empowering that person to know that yes, there might be this systemic racism even if we don’t use those words, but how can we change it? And we are part of the change. So by understanding those experiences and by advocating without putting all the responsibility on that person, but it’s just about helping them understand that they do have a lot of rights here, and how can they use those rights?
Amanda Kemperman (14:45): Adopting a strengths-based approach when engaging in conversations with children and families can serve as a protective and beneficial strategy for identifying solutions. Steph emphasises the value of recognising the skills and knowledge that children and families develop while navigating problems and challenges in their life, emphasising that these insights and wisdom present opportunities for practitioners to support and collaborate with them.
Steph Shavin (15:13): I think when we position the families that we work alongside passively, we either intentionally or unintentionally ignore the many knowledges and skills and strengths, knowledges and skills particularly that families bring with them, that the people we’re working alongside are constantly responding to their context. They’re not passive recipients, and whether we are able to see acts of resistance depends on our capacity to support families to shift into active positions.
(15:52): That’s important in a number of different ways. It privileges and respects and welcomes other cultural ways of knowing and doing and supports us to not replicate existing power dynamics that privilege Western lands. It’s likely, I think more than likely it’s tapping into ways of being that are resonant for the family that we’re working with are going to be more effective. Working with people from where they’re at, and in the ways that make sense to them, and in the context of what is doable for them at that point in time is going to be more effective than us holding a perfect notion or expectation of what a particular therapeutic intervention should look like from a Western lens with a family that has a number of privileges that enable them to dedicate a specific amount of time or resources to a particular intervention.
Amanda Kemperman (16:51): We spent time talking about anti-racist practice, and ways practitioners challenge and dismantle racism, how they actively challenge racial biases and promote equity and inclusion in their practice. Here’s what Julie has to say.
Julie Ngwabi (17:06): I think cultural awareness in practitioners is very helpful in so many ways because it helps them. In addition, in not making assumptions, but it helps them to open up to the other person’s culture as well. So I think cultural awareness in practitioners, it actually helps practitioners, especially if they’re from a dominant culture, not to impose their worldview to the other person because it’s when you make those assumptions, and it’s when you become biased and you see the world in your own normative worldview, which can create a discrepancy with the other person. So in other words, really cultural awareness actually helps practitioners not to impose their own dominant culture and worldview on the other person who is called.
Amanda Kemperman (18:08): Cultural humility is the cornerstone of culturally responsive and appropriate practice. Julie Ngwabi spoke about how she thinks about cultural humility.
Julie Ngwabi (18:18): So I think those things, attending to power imbalances and harnessing cultural wisdom and expertise are things that can be helpful. And also practicing cultural humility, being able to listen and to learn from the other person as an aspect of their culture and being open to challenge your own individual and personal biases, and being able to unlearn previously held beliefs that might be wrong or harmful and be willing to learn new from this other person from a different culture. So cultural humility and the ability to learn unhelpful beliefs and learn new helpful ones are really important.
Amanda Kemperman (19:10): Steph Shavin emphasises the importance of practicing cultural humility. As a practitioner from the dominant culture, she mitigates the risks of colonising practise. Steph elaborates on her approach to cultural humility, drawing from Melanie Tervalon and Jann Murray-García’s work and how it informs her interactions and work with diverse communities.
Steph Shavin (19:33): But like we transgress power all the time. My practise is imperfect practise, always imperfect practise, and I learn this trade off the backs of the people that I work alongside and have to acknowledge that. I think often there are times where I would leave an appointment or be in supervision and realise that I haven’t clocked a set of assumptions and I’ve pursued a path of conversation or intervention without checking in around how that resonates or connects with a particular family or not, where I’ve privileged a very wide or Western lens and haven’t clocked it.
(20:10): As three key tenets to cultural humility. One is critical self-reflection and lifelong learning, one is mitigating power imbalances, and the third is institutional accountability or institutions modelling those principles. I think cultural humility is useful for us in our practice because it steers us towards appreciating localised knowledge of each individual family rather than presuming that all families from a particular community will practice culture in the same ways.
Amanda Kemperman (20:40): During our conversation, Etty spoke about being vulnerable as a practitioner and how learning and seeking to understand positions her well with family she’s working with.
Etty Garabelli (20:50): Sometimes we can be intimidated because we think we don’t know enough about that person’s culture. Or if you are someone who has grown up here and you’re conscious of that privilege that you might have, that can be intimidating because you don’t want to say something wrong. But sometimes when we are too scared, then that also becomes a barrier, and we need to be humble enough to recognise how do we get support from others so that we can easily navigate this. And knowing that we can also develop that awareness of how to work with anyone from any culture and be it any gender and any faith, because it’s about supporting that person and learning from them at the same time that you are supporting them. That has to be at the core of what you’re doing. Seeing each other as, yes, we are different in many ways, but we’re also the same in so many other ways.
(21:49): So let’s find that. Let’s find that common ground and then we can together work towards building that strong connection and supporting that person and their children as well. And it’s difficult to navigate it when it’s not your culture because you’re going to have that person. You can never put yourself in that person’s shoes as much as you try, but also because that person doesn’t see you as being the same, they can usually say, “You don’t know, you don’t understand.” And it’s true, we don’t understand. And how do we once again, try to understand as much as possible, but also let them know you’re right, I can’t fully understand, but I’m trying my best here.
Amanda Kemperman (22:32): Etty also spoke about how being humble and holistic in her practice helps to reduce barriers between the practitioner and families.
Etty Garabelli (22:41): You are humble enough to let the person know that you’re still learning and that you are doing your best to support that person, even if you might not fully yet understand everything about their culture and about their reality. And I might not hold the same values in certain things or might not have the same faith, for example, but that doesn’t mean that my values are going to stop me from supporting you because this is about you, it’s not about me. But you have to consider the whole family dynamics what is happening for everyone because it’s not just when we’re talking about cold communities. Once again, it’s not just about the parents and the children, it’s about the grandparents, it’s about the relatives.
(23:28): And one big example was throughout COVID, we were safe here in majority while a lot of us had people who were literally dying. And there is that fear of what’s going to happen to your relatives, when are you going to see them again? But also, you are here safe and you’re not able to provide the same safety for your family. So you might not realise that that’s what’s happening to that family because when you see them in your room, you just look at them as parents and children and they’re all here because it also allows them to think about their children’s experience. Not only does it give them a voice, but it might get them to consider the experience of that child that they probably have assumed that that’s what’s going on for them, but they might take the time to have that conversation with their child and then come back to you the next session to tell you. So I think it opens a door for them.
Amanda Kemperman (24:26): I’d like to leave you with a final reflection from Etty, but before I do, a big thank you to you practitioners for the valuable contribution that you and your colleagues make to the lives of children that rely on us, and we encourage you to keep an open mind and heart and keep on learning. Thanks for being with Julie Ngwabi, Steph Shavin, Etty Garabelli, and myself, Amanda Kemperman, and keep an eye out for our next installment. Here’s Etty’s final word on cultural curiosity and learning.
Etty Garabelli (24:58): I think as practitioners, we want to be there for the family and we want to offer that person-centred approach, and it’s through learning about their values and about their culture, their faith that we’re able to offer what we really want to offer that person, and it prevents us from making some assumptions about the family and about their reality. I think it supports to have a more honest and deeper conversation, but it also allows us to go back after the session and understand if we might need to learn new things so that we can offer a different approach to the family as well. Or do we need to consult with someone from that culture to allows us to gain a real understanding? So I think by getting to know the person and their culture, it also makes our job a little bit easier, and more meaningful.
Narrator (25:52): Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au to access a range of resources to assist your practise. Brought to you by the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health, led by Emerging Minds. The National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the National Support for Child or Youth Mental Health Program.