Transcript for
Gambling harm

Narrator [00:00:02] Welcome to the Emerging Minds podcast.

Dan Moss [00:00:08] You’re with Dan Moss, and today I’m speaking with Monya Murch, a psychotherapist who works with individuals and families impacted by gambling-related harm, childhood adverse experiences and psychological distress. At Relationships Australia, South Australia Gambling Health Service, Monya has been working in health for over fifteen years after completing studies in Social Sciences, and later, training and specialising in addiction, trauma-informed practice and perinatal mental health. In today’s episode, we discuss the impacts of gambling, and how it affects parents and children’s mental health and wellbeing. We also discuss how practitioners can build trust and use a strength perspective when working with parents with gambling issues to support parenting and improve outcomes for children’s social and emotional wellbeing.

Dan Moss [00:00:58] Welcome, Monya.

Monya Murch [00:01:00] Hello, Dan.

Dan Moss [00:01:02] Maybe we could start off by asking you to describe the service that you work in and the role that you have within that service.

Monya Murch [00:01:11] So I work at Relationship Australia, South Australia within the gambling help service and the gambling help service offers support to people that experience adverse consequences of gambling-related harm. So the service has been in place in South Australia since 1995. We are currently quite a large team. We have different offices in Adelaide. We have qualified practitioners, counsellors, financial counsellors and peer workers as well. So we work with individuals that are experiencing gambling harm and these can be family members, it can be friends, it can be also, you know, just that individual that is gambling or gambling in a way which is not supportive. So that is very much, you know, who we are.

Dan Moss [00:02:04] So can you tell me a bit about what gambling harm is and its impact on a person, particularly a parent’s mental health or wellbeing?

Monya Murch [00:02:14] The definition of gambling harm is actually quite important, really, to understand the nature of gambling and the impact on individuals in society to burden society. So the one that I consider as a definition, the more comprehensive that really describes the extent of gambling-related harm is actually in the New Zealand Gambling Act, where we look at gambling harm as any gambling behaviour that is basically arising or caused or exacerbated by a person’s gambling. So what is important in understanding this is also that gambling doesn’t happen in isolation and that we have several domains of harm. So the domains of harm that they tend to come to the attention of services to start with is generally financial losses. So financial harm. However, the way that they will invite people to actually pay more attention and consider the harm essentially in which way gambling harm or gambling related harm, adverse consequences of gambling have severe impact on relationships, on health, physical and mental health of individuals and families. And so we really have to pay more attention of the consequences which are at a relational level rather than only financial. Of course, financial pressure can strain relationships as well, but over time would have been observing is very much perhaps a lack of understanding on the severity of losses when it comes to divorce or losses of loved ones. And also, you know, situations of homelessness where people then, you know, just like a really, in very delicate and precarious situations, it’s very difficult to come out from.

Dan Moss [00:04:08] So, Monya, can you tell us a little bit about some of the reasons parents develop issues with gambling? And is there a connection between people’s experience of trauma and gambling behaviour?

Monya Murch [00:04:20] OK, so some of the reasons, you know, just, you know, why do people gamble? I mean, you know, that’s I guess one of the questions then. You know, most people are, you know, even people, that do engage in gambling behaviours to ask themselves, you know, why gambling? I would say that over time, one of the main themes that comes you know, to the forum is speaking or working with people experiencing gambling home, is that gambling not unlike, you know, substances, alcohol misuse is very much in terms of seeking relief from situations or emotions that feel uncomfortable for high levels of distress, attention from financial pressures we were saying before, even sometimes worries and demands. If we look at parenting for instance, something that is not often considered is, you know, the pressure of being a new parent, for instance. And what I observed over time is new parents are navigating parenthood, you know, changes of roles or situations, we can be very demanding and legitimately bringing up a lot of distress at different levels and a lot of vulnerability. Gambling can seemingly, feeling, you know, the need or seeking relief or self-soothing for the parent.

Dan Moss [00:05:32] Is there a socio-economic connection to people’s use of gambling?

Monya Murch [00:05:40] That’s a great question. So what happens and it is one of those areas that is not really often talked about is very much the relationship between low socio-economic status and the greater harm that people experience in terms of also not only accessibility of venues in areas which are more disadvantaged, which we have higher density of venues in those areas, but also in terms of one thing that we have to look at when we look at low socio-economic, economic, economic status is very much, you know, a sense of oppression, disadvantage that comes also with discrimination at times. So, again, you know, gambling, unfortunately, is exploitative element, offers that illusion that people can access more resources, can perhaps change their situation. And so gambling may appear or can appear to people as a way out of disadvantage. In reality, what it does as we know it actually cements people in poverty and loss. And actually know that becomes really, accumulates in terms of, you know, negative experiences or adverse experiences that people already struggling with adverse or disadvantaged predicament then have to to work with as well.

Dan Moss [00:07:03] And I suppose an under-researched area is the effect of children on gambling habits of parents. Can you tell us what you know about that?

Monya Murch [00:07:12] When it comes to gambling and the impact or what is the negative impact in terms, so the addict relationship or relationship parent infant, parent young children, there’s not much research at the moment, and it is something that we really perhaps need to pay a little bit more attention, given what we know in other fields like, you know, human development or infant wellbeing and development. As I was mentioning before, when we look at, if we look at parents experiencing, for instance, perinatal depression, we really know the consequences or possible consequences on child development and future outcomes. Now, depression can be a consequence of gambling harm, and the way that we look at it is very much in terms of at times parents, you know, from observation what I see can use gambling as a way not to experience negative emotions or not experience emotions or emotional states which are challenging or depressive states. But often times what can happen as well is that if the gambling escalates, then, you know, just like due to losses, due to financial strain, due to marital conflict, then we can have a depressive state. And this we know the association in terms of depression, parenting and then infants or young children well-being is quite complex and is something that we need to pay more attention.

Dan Moss [00:08:38] So is what you’re saying, sometimes gambling can be a symptom of parents mental health or poverty or other issues rather than just the cause of those things?

Monya Murch [00:08:50] Yeah, actually, no know. As I was saying before, you know, just like if we look at gambling as a symptoms or as a way that people seek to look for a distraction from what they’re experiencing as perhaps intensity in their life or attention or emotional and psychological distress, and that is gambling, then seemingly feel seeing their need for relief, for their need for self-soothing or their need for just as people often use the word escape from, you know, the intensity of life on that point in time, obviously, by engaging in that behaviour. There are a lot of unwanted or unintended consequences that we mentioned before. Yeah.

Dan Moss [00:09:37] So when you work with parents within your service to find that children are a motivating factor in them wanting to make changes in their relationship with gambling?

Monya Murch [00:09:49] Well, you know, often what I observe, you know, working with people is certainly the well-being of the children or the fear of losing their family becomes one of the highest reason or the highest reason why they access services and they actually seek help. Again you know, just like children are a motivation. I work, well I’ve been working with new fathers and there is a lot of anxiety, fear in terms you know, how’s my relationship going to look like for my child? So really, the willingness to do things differently is present. Obviously, there are a lot of challenges because, you know, they may want to do things differently, but there is a lot of other distress that can be present. I think earlier on you ask about is trauma present? and what we what we’ve seen over time, is there a lot of times, there will be adverse experiences in early childhood or also in adulthood. The correlation with domestic violence and gambling is very high. So, you know, of course, we work with the gambling as a symptom of distress. But then we also have to work with the relationship with the child, with the infant, which, you know, is two different ways to engage with a person at that point in time. But going back to it is and motivating factor, yes it is. People do want to be there, they want to engage better. They want to understand why they’re doing it or what’s happening to them. Why all of a sudden, you know, that behaviour has become quite different from what they know themselves to be. And how can they be there more for their children. Again, you know, to allow the children to have a life that doesn’t have to be so, you know, disadvantage or full of distress.

Dan Moss [00:11:37]  I’m just thinking about all of the issues that, you know, you’ve mentioned before. The fathers might come into the door with. You mentioned, you know, parenting, of course, gambling, domestic and family violence. Does this mean that the practitioners that work in your service need to develop many different competencies and skills?

Monya Murch [00:11:59] Absolutely. When I started in the field, you know, working with people affected by gambling harm, I didn’t think that the work was going to present, you know, such a level of complexity. But I defined having worked or so in with previously trauma and scenarios where there were different addictions. I do find the gambling, gambling related harm to be actually really more complex in terms of what do people present with, what is that they’re struggling, different layer of working with people. And so, yeah, we need to be able to allow a space where people can trust us to support them where they’re at and into why the best supports them as well.

Dan Moss [00:12:46] And so you mentioned before that lots of your clients were feeling a level of distress or worry about what this meant for their relationships with children. What was the role of stigma and shame played in conversations with these clients, particularly about their children’s, social and emotional well-being?

Monya Murch [00:13:06] So what is the impact? The impact of stigma and shame and again. So stigma I will group the wrote in the conversation in themes. You know, one we used the words stigma often while we will leave out our words for a description. So depression, again, discrimination and prejudice. So we are looking not at the individual level, but also the community level. So stigma also in teams when it comes to gambling, if you think about even pejorative language and stereotypes, they are used to describe people if there is something that is identified as being a gambling problem. So the stigma is very high. You know, there are stereotypes there we need to drop. So if I can say so. And as a community, we need to understand and allow people to work with what is that they’re struggling with. And shame, of course, is also very pervasive. Like in any other behaviour that we describe as addictions or we refer to as addiction. Also when it comes to gambling, shame is very pervasive. And what shame does or what that shame feeds in terms of parents is isolation, is withdrawing from, you know, connection with family members or community, which again you know, what does that mean for the young children. Is that the children are isolated. They don’t have access to resources they could have access to. They don’t have access to perhaps also other important connections for their development or safe spaces as well. So they often watch shame and stigma do is really too, for a better word to shrink the life of the person, to shrink the life of the family. And so everything, you know, the environment is really altered and is not supportive of the parent or the child. So in conversation with people experiencing gambling harm. We’re really looking at how to work with shame, how to actually understand, you know, for themselves, to understand what’s happening, and how they can do things differently. And then also as a service, we work at a community level. To again, as I was saying before, to bring a different understanding of gambling harm. And so also, you know, taking down stereotypes around people and why they do what they do, or why they don’t do what they don’t do.

Dan Moss [00:15:27] Yeah, so I really want to kind of stay with this point for for a second, if that’s okay. Because it seems to me that you certainly, your practitioners and yourself are doing whatever you can not to kind of buy in or collude with that sense of shame for parents. But at the same time, wanting to really stay present to the effects of what’s happening for children. So how do you kind of manage that?

Monya Murch [00:15:49] We want to support people to make different choices if that’s what they want to do in their own time and space. So we want to offer that space. At the same time, we have to be acutely aware of the impact on infants ory extremely respectful and, you know, again, family sensitive, but also that awareness or what does an infant need? What is important in terms of, you know, for the parent, perhaps? And not perhaps, I’m quite sure when one is very preoccupied about gambling or losses or conflict. You know, the situations of high conflict within the family and the couple, very often the infants in particular, become invisible. So as a practitioner, although I have extreme you know, I hold the space for the person. I also have to make space for the infant or the young child to be really visible in what they require, in what is needed, in how a behaviour can affect on the well-being of the child. So it is really in a very respectful way and collaborative way to hold a space where one doesn’t have to exclude the other. But we can certainly support, you know, that visibility for the parents. Again, you know, most of us, when we are really distress or distracted, we tend not to pay as much attention or care. We tend to become less responsive to young children or in particular infants, where the relationship is really the core of their wellbeing. You know, the relationship with the caregiver is the environment, is what they survive with.

Dan Moss [00:17:33] And I suppose that must be a real challenge for some parents as they start to slowly become more aware of maybe some of the effects of their gambling and other associated behaviours on their infant or child.

Monya Murch [00:17:45] Look it is, it is always very challenging. And that’s why the work that we do is, as I was said before, at a pace and offering space to the parent to work with what they can work with at that point in time. As you know, shame can be really crushing as an emotion can be really paralysing. And so, you know, we want the person to be able to start moving out of it in a way that then becomes really supportive of their relationships or their relationships and the young children. So you know, if we move gently and slowly in that process, then people are able to start considering looking, realizing, reflecting on the negative consequences or adverse consequences on the children as well, and how important it is to do things differently. It may not always happen, but you know, and that’s the reality of things. On the other hand, or so as some remind us the fact that there is gambling, that’s where I don’t want to kind of stereotype again something or a behaviour. Is that it doesn’t mean that because there is gambling that parents are not attentive, that they’re not nurturing, that they’re not caring. You know, we had to be really careful. That’s why, as I said, it is really very sensitive and gentle way to work with people, because every family responds in different ways, every child responds in different ways.

Dan Moss [00:19:12] Can you tell us a little bit about either the similarities or differences in the way that mothers or fathers present to the service?

Monya Murch [00:19:21] You know, that’s a very interesting question. Do they present differently? I guess, again, I don’t want to fall into stereotypes. In terms of who is the nurturing type and who is not and why? Generalising you can say that, that could be overtly women tend to express more shame around their gambling if it is present. Because again, there is that assumption that they should be more present and more nurturing with their children. Fathers or men tend sometimes to normalise the behaviour as something that it is expected. You know, you go out and you play sport and you bet online, is something that is at times more normalised. However, over time, I haven’t seen much of a difference, in truth in terms of how people talk about the gambling or their fear in terms of the impact of their behaviour on the children. And if anything else, over time, I would say I’ve seen fathers being way more anxious and fearful of how their behaviour can have any impact on their children.

Dan Moss [00:20:27] And do children ever attend services with their parent?

Monya Murch [00:20:32] The gambling help services is an adult service. However, over time, you know, just as I was saying before, I guess, you know, I’ve been having a lot of possibilities to see parents and young children interactions, in particular with infants and toddlers. So there is a possibility for us to have an assessment. And I find that to be a really or to observe, you know, to have sessions where we have parents and children and families at times. So what happens is that with that we are also gives us a chance to also more effectively refer people to to other services, and how to best support them. If that is using them with another service, which is more children specific. Something I think that is developing elsewhere, maybe in Victoria they’re doing something along the line. But you know really we can do that occasionally, but we’re still mainly adult service.

Dan Moss [00:21:38] I just want to touch on your supervisory role in the service for a minute, Monya. Because I suppose as practitioners, none of us sit outside this kind of tendency to judge or kind of stereotype as you say parents because of the effects their gambling might be having on their children. How do you as a senior practitioners, support staff to ensure that they constantly adhere to a strengths perspective or to the kind of that sense of respect that you talked about before?

Monya Murch [00:22:12] You know, that’s an interesting one because, in a way, I really know that one way to be supportive is how day to day, you know, interactions with anyone, within people we work with. The language we use. So, you know, it’s not only the language you use in a session with the person you’re working with, with a parent or the parents. But also in the day to day conversations with your colleagues, you know how we refer. Like, you know how we talk in our conversations, out of the counselling room about about a person that has presented to the service. I give you an example like sometimes, you know, referring to people as addicts or gamblers. It seems to me, therefore, suggesting that pejorative language. Where we are actually not really having a conversation, with a colleague, with with another practitioner in terms of what is the person experiencing bu we are, yeah it’s another way of labelling and stereotyping people. So seen  that is lets say there is more interactions with people, you can already start introducing a language which is more respectful and certainly more holding of people experiences at that point in time. And then, you know, as as you well know, is very much in terms of all of us. Is not only who we are and how we relate to others, but there are different models, you know that will work with people. And some people may just, you know, prefer a model where there is more a tendency of pathologising people. I’m very clear that that’s not the way I work with people. So, you know, when you say ‘how do I support others?’ I introduce the possibility actually to look at gambling in this instance as a symptom or something else. So I work with people in a way of what has happened to people, what is happening, how can people do things differently rather than going into a pathology. As I was saying before, I look at it from, you know, really more of a social health perspective rather than an individual trait or an individual fault. Which I do find is actually in particular also with gambling, doesn’t distract us from what I’ve said before, the explorative nature of the gambling, which actually is exploring people vulnerabilities as well.

Dan Moss [00:24:27] Look, that’s fantastic. That’s really fascinating and insightful. So thank you very much for your time.

Monya Murch [00:24:34] Well, thank you for having me.

Narrator [00:24:37] Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au to access a range of resources to assist your practice. Brought to you by the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health, led by Emerging Minds. The National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.