Transcript for
Gaming: Finding a healthy balance for children and young people

Narrator (VO) (00:02): 

Welcome to the Emerging Minds Families Podcast. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (00:06): 

Hi, I’m Alicia Ranford and you’re listening to an Emerging Minds Families Podcast. Gaming has become an integral part of many young people’s lives, providing entertainment, social connection, and even potential career paths. Parents though can feel frustrated by their children’s interest in gaming, but recent studies show some really interesting positives, including the growth of attention, memory, and problem solving abilities. But there is a flip side and too much time spent at the screen can have a negative effect on mental health and wellbeing, such as increased levels of anxiety, depression, and social isolation. Many parents tell us that it’s hard finding or even knowing what the right balance is when it comes to gaming and screen time. So today we have enlisted, Nikki Taranis. Nikki was most recently a team leader with the Australian Childhood Foundation, and she draws on her experience as a social worker, therapeutic specialist, and her own interest in gaming. Welcome Nikki, thank you for joining us today. 

Nikki Taranis (Guest) (01:12): 

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be here. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (01:15): 

Could you start by telling us about your interest in gaming and how you came to work in this sector? 

Nikki Taranis (Guest) (01:20): 

There’s two significant reasons why I have an interest in this area and children and young people gaming and their caregivers support. One is that I’ve worked for a long time with children and young people who have found a lot of joy in gaming, found a sense of mastery and connection in gaming, but also at times their caregivers have discovered some really significant challenges related to their behaviour when they’re gaming. And that’s something that I’ve supported people with over the years and found a lot of interest in. And the other element is that I really enjoy gaming myself. I love it. And I think that there are a lot of positives and have been gaming since quite a young age, but also understand as a result, some of the really significant challenges that go with balancing gaming in everyday life. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (02:07): 

When we think of gaming, often we think of teenagers, but do we include the games that perhaps small children play on iPhones and other devices to keep them entertained? 

Nikki Taranis (Guest) (02:18): 

Yes. I think this is a great thing for us to discuss because it’s often not included in those broader discussions about gaming, and it’s becoming far more common that young people, especially young children are being handed mobile phones as a way to pull their focus at a time when maybe a caregiver needs to do a task or a duty, so we’re seeing that happen more and more. And there’s so many different forms of gaming that are happening that caregivers might not be aware of or they might be seeing young people starting to engage with or ask questions about. There’s certainly console gaming like Xbox and PlayStation and those types of things, and there’s PC gaming that’s super common, but we’ve got mobile gaming that’s just happening on mobile phones. We’ve also got social media gaming. 

(03:01): 

So lots of different platforms like Facebook have little mini-games and they’re things that a lot of children and young people are using at the moment. And then we’re seeing this broader aspect of eSports, which is like the professional gaming realm. So there’s all these different areas that the children and young people are gaming, and I think it’s good for parents and caregivers to know it’s quite broad, but definitely includes mobile phone usage. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (03:25): 

And it’s fascinating because a colleague of mine here at Emerging Minds, she said that they bought their young daughter who was four or five, a little camera, and that actually came with own individual games on it as well. And so they’d bought this device not realising that it did have this interacting game on it as well. 

Nikki Taranis (Guest) (03:43): 

Yes, those things are becoming far more common, these types of integrated games into other devices that young people are utilising and maybe their caregivers don’t even know that they’re having access to gaming in that way. It’s an interesting element, camera of all things, so interesting. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (03:59): 

And why are children towards gaming from an early age and what should we be looking out for? 

Nikki Taranis (Guest) (04:05): 

I think there’s quite a few reasons that children are engaging with gaming far earlier nowadays. One is that it’s just more easily accessible. Mobile phones, like we just discussed, are one of those very accessible areas that most people have access to. So definitely accessibility and affordability. Once upon a time it was quite challenging to purchase a gaming console, it was very expensive, but they’re becoming cheaper to manufacture and to purchase, so the affordability of it makes it more accessible, and it’s just become the norm for interactive entertainment. So I think those three elements, accessibility, affordability, and that it’s become the norm, it’s just easier for children and young people to become engaged with gaming at a younger age. 

(04:48): 

It’s also something where, which we’ll probably discuss more later on, but they’re utilising gaming at times as a form of self-soothing or comfort and control in their lives. So we’re seeing if they’re utilising games like on mobile phones quite early, it might be giving them a sense of control that they might not have outside of that realm. And so they’re going back to gaming more and more as they age to gain that sense of control or predictability or even mastery that they might not have in other parts of their lives. So starting early with gaming might mean that that engagement happens more and more. 

(05:24): 

And the other element which I mentioned earlier is that caregivers have everyday tasks to do. They’re busy, they have a lot on their plates and to occupy children is quite a gift when you can get it. And I think gaming in itself, interactive entertainment in this way has become a way for parents to be able to shift focus of children and young people so that they can get really important tasks done that they need to and that they might be challenged to do when children and young people are with them or focused on them. So I think they’re some of the really core reasons why we’re seeing children moving towards gaming at a earlier age and just watching out for those elements of us utilising gaming as a way to engage children far more than we used to. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (06:10): 

And I guess that’s a small benefit for parents, perhaps a busy parent who is trying to get tasks done, is to have as some sort of gaming device entertain their children. What are the potential benefits of gaming for children? 

Nikki Taranis (Guest) (06:21): 

I definitely think there are benefits and some research that’s out now is certainly demonstrating that there are many benefits for gaming. There can be the development of social skills through communication and cooperation and teamwork through gameplay, particularly multiplayer games that a lot of young people are engaging with. There’s exposure to educational opportunities, so information about history and science. There’s cultural awareness in some games, exposure to different cultures and countries and practises that they might not be exposed to in their everyday lives. 

(06:57): 

There’s some great opportunities for reading in games and to utilise that skill from quite an early age. There’s also some really great elements like problem solving, critical thinking, enhancement of cognitive abilities through memory utilisation in games. There’s even things like strategic thinking and planning skills that get utilised. There’s a lot that actually can be undertaken in games, which can be really beneficial for children’s development. Even hand eye coordination in some games can really be enhanced, and there’s quite a bit of research about that for young people, but also creativity and imagination. Some games have an opportunity for children to explore new and creative worlds, to either create them themselves, to enhance that ability for creative thinking. And they also can explore elements to do with empathy because engaging with characters in games and maybe putting themselves in their shoes for decision making or adventuring gives the opportunity for them to expand their understanding of how other people engage in life from the decisions they might make. 

(08:07): 

And there’s also some great ways for bonding and connection, that might be online for children when they’re playing multiplayer games and connecting with people around the world. Or it might be that connection that’s happening with their peers at school or other family members who are gaming, and they have the opportunity to discuss and share the things that they enjoy or the challenges they’re experiencing, so they’re developing those skills as well. I think there are certainly lots and lots of benefits to gaming. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (08:33): 

I had never imagined there would be a list quite that long. 

Nikki Taranis (Guest) (08:36): 

It’s fantastic. It’s great. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (08:37): 

It’s brilliant. But we know there is a flip side, and so ultimately, what are some of the risks associated with excessive gaming? 

Nikki Taranis (Guest) (08:45): 

There are definitely a lot of challenges related to gaming, and I think when we’re discussing many of these concepts, we’re working towards balance because of the challenges that are present, many of which caregivers who are listening will be aware of and have maybe even seen their children or young people in their care be exposed to, such as exposure to inappropriate content, having access to games that might have violent or sexual content or engagement with other people online. Again, with things like multiplayer games where they might be having interactions, they might have their headset on, be speaking to other people and they might be exposed to inappropriate language or concepts through that discussion. That can be really, really challenging. 

(09:30): 

Cyber bullying is a really big part of the experience that could be negative for children and young people in regards to gaming. And we’re seeing that become more prevalent again in things like multiplayer games where people are having discussion, both verbal and written with people online. And that type of engagement sometimes can lead to bullying, which can be really challenging. There’s a really big part of the challenge of gaming, which is that it’s sedentary and it’s something that we probably don’t discuss enough and that even if we’re stimulating our brain, that can be wonderful, that long list of positives that I reeled off are so fantastic, but while we’re doing that, our body isn’t moving. 

(10:10): 

And for young people, that is an essential element of their development, they need to be engaging in physical exercise. And so the sedentary nature of gaming is probably one of its most significant challenges and it can lead to really poor physical outcomes for children if they’re engaging in what we call excessive gaming or addictive gaming. And that could be things like eye strain and headaches, poor posture is a really challenging element of that engagement for young people who might be excessively gaming. So they really need lots of breaks and consistent breaks to make sure that they’re engaging with a balance between the sedentary nature of gaming and physical activity. 

(10:48): 

One of the other elements that can be a really big challenge is in-game purchases. And some parents are aware of this, some because it’s crept up on them and they’ve noticed on their credit card, but it’s becoming far more common in games, particularly those that we’ve discussed like mobile games, that what we call in-app purchases or in-game purchases can occur, especially if a credit card is linked or a bank account is linked and a young person might engage in an activity in which they’re purchasing different elements in a game which a parent might not be aware of. Or the young person might feel conflicted because there’s a boundary there in which they’re not able to buy those things, but peers that are playing that game are allowed to do that and that can cause its own sense of conflict for young people. So there is quite a bit of challenges associated with gaming that are just a reality of that world. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (11:38): 

And how can parents identify and address these risks in their kids? 

Nikki Taranis (Guest) (11:43): 

I think one of the best things to do is to monitor what’s going on with the children and young people in their home, is to take an active and engaged role in what they’re doing. Truly want to see and understand what they’re engaging with, what they’re playing, why they’re playing it, truly looking at what they’re doing every day so that you can have discussions with them that are open about what’s happening for them and striking a balance for them between engaging in that world and the positive benefits of it and aiding children and young people to understand the challenges that are present and giving them an opportunity to openly discuss them with caregivers so that there’s a sense of safety in discussing if they maybe are being exposed to something like bullying or inappropriate content without fear of reprisal from a caregiver by sharing that experience. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (12:33): 

And you mentioned just before about excessive or addictive gaming. What is too much or the right amount perhaps of gaming that we should be aiming for? 

Nikki Taranis (Guest) (12:44): 

I think that’s something for caregivers to define for their home and what is the right balance for the child or young person. But similar to screen time, you’re certainly looking for an hour or less up until six years old of screen time, particularly with gaming, and probably six to 12, looking between one and two hours, really wanting to keep that on the lower side always and in moderation and balance with other physical activities and hobbies, things that engage to other parts of their body and brain that aren’t being engaged whilst they’re gaming. And making sure that you have some really good consistent boundaries that you’ve maybe collaborated with the child or young person on so they have a sense of control and ownership over when they start or stop playing and finding that balance for them of things that they enjoy other than gaming. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (13:35): 

What role can a parent monitoring and involvement play in promoting healthy gaming habits in children? 

Nikki Taranis (Guest) (13:42): 

They play the biggest role by far. I think starting early is one of the most important elements of this discussion. The earlier you start with the boundaries in regards to gaming and the open conversations that need to happen with young people, the better. Now in today’s society, that’s hard because sometimes it creeps off on us, like we’ve discussed, it’s popping up on things like cameras and phones and social media apps, so that’s really challenging for caregivers. But if they can make sure that they understand first what their expectation is of the child and young person in their care, the better that they are to start setting boundaries and limits and expectations around gaming. 

(14:25): 

So first, I would encourage caregivers to really think about how often they want children playing games, what type of games they want to play, and what a balance between the gaming and other activities might look like in the child or young person’s life. Because it’s one thing for us to say it’s good to have a balance and it’s another thing to say to a young person, “Stop playing and just go do something else,” that’s super challenging. So we really need to think about what those other things might be. And the great elements could be things like sports, which are a fantastic opportunity for young people and their physical and their social development and other hobbies, even if they’re game related. But they might be things like tabletop gaming or board games with the family, something where they’re engaging with a different skillset, maybe more social, maybe a little less sedentary, but is guided by a caregiver so that they’re not having to make that decision themselves, which can be really challenging for children and young people to define, particularly when games can be so alluring and so engaging. 

(15:26): 

Monitoring games and online activity is super important for caregivers to do. Really truly understanding what they’re doing online is really important, asking those questions, but also watching, being beside them, asking questions so you can really understand what they’re doing and are those interactions and engagements healthy or beneficial, or are they actually causing distress or challenges for the child or young person. And the other element is modelling healthy habits, which can be really, really challenging because we are also as adults engaging with things like mobile phones or gaming to gain a lot of the same benefits as children and young people, to get enjoyment, to get some sort of escapism from the challenges in life and to engage with other people on social media. So for us to set expectations and consistent boundaries with young people, we also really need to model those habits. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (16:22): 

And I feel like what I’m hearing from you is that I need to go home and sit down and play some of the games that my son plays so that I really understand what he’s playing, and actually it would be quite fun to engage with him in that way. 

Nikki Taranis (Guest) (16:33): 

I think that would be absolutely amazing. If you took anything from today, that would be it. That would be fantastic. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (16:39): 

Nikki, how can parents facilitate discussions with their children about the potential risks and also benefits of gaming and help them really to make good decisions about their gaming habits? 

Nikki Taranis (Guest) (16:50): 

I would say the two key elements for those types of discussions is starting the conversation itself. So actually doing that as early as possible, being totally open about what gaming is, what it might mean to a child, what it means to the adult in regards to their expectations in gaming, and having a really open discussion about all the really good things and all the really challenging things that come as a result of gaming. And the second really important element is about parents educating themselves. Like you just said, going home, sitting down, watching them play, playing yourself, really understanding what game they’re playing and having some sort of sense and control as well over that process, which for a lot of caregivers, you can, you are the ones most likely, for the children we’re discussing, purchasing those games. So you have a lot of control in regards to what content they’re actually accessing, so you can take that much more into your hands to understand what it looks like and what types of themes and content they’re going to be engaging with and giving them guidance about what are good gaming habits for them. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (17:55): 

For our listeners today that perhaps haven’t managed to set limits on their children’s gaming that they’re comfortable with, what are some strategies, in your opinion, parents can use to set limits on their children’s gaming time and how can they enforce these limits effectively, particularly if they have a child who’s gaming for an excessive amount of time? 

Nikki Taranis (Guest) (18:17): 

Yes, this is one of the challenges definitely that exists with gaming nowadays, that by the time that a caregiver realises there is an issue or a challenge with a young person potentially excessively gaming, they feel like it’s a little too late to put in a boundary. And it’s not, it does not mean that that won’t be challenging and it won’t have conflict and potential issues between them and the young person as they resolve and move towards consistency of boundaries. But it’s never too late to start that with a young person, especially in my experience working with children in out of home care. So children that are in foster care and with new caregivers, often they come into care at a later adolescent age with already significant engagement with gaming that might not be monitored or regulated. So that can be really challenging. 

(19:07): 

So I’ve seen it many times and I’ve also seen it work really well when it’s put in place. But what needs to happen again is going back to that open conversation of I’m concerned or worried because I can see that your gaming for this many hours a day, and as a result, I can see these things which might be, I can see that you don’t talk to your friends very much anymore. I can see you’re not going to the skate park, you’re not going to footy, you don’t come out and eat dinner with the family. These things, real concrete impacts of gaming, they’re the things that you really need to have a discussion with, not just saying, “I’m just not happy with your gaming, or I don’t like it.” For a young person that’s really hard to contextualise. So understanding yourself as a caregiver, what is causing you concern, and then articulating that as openly as you can with the young person. 

(19:53): 

And that conversation might need to happen quite a few times before you’re able to start progressing towards creating limits and boundaries so that the young person could adjust to the fact that actually their gaming is having an impact on them and others. You might need to start with a small reduction in time with an aim to move towards more significant reduction of gaming time as they adjust and adapt to that change. I’d highly suggest that that’s something that’s visually recorded in some way and that that’s collaborative with the young person so that they’re a part of that decision making process and have an understanding of why there are these limits that are being taken to their gaming and what the positive benefits of that might be. Because supporting them with that and having positive reinforcement as well can really help to reduce their gaming time and to support them to undertake other much more positive endeavours, again, physical activity, engagement socially with others, engagement with family. 

(20:51): 

And encouraging breaks for children and young people that maybe their gaming isn’t excessive, but certainly is at a state where you would like to see more balance, making sure that you’re encouraging and supporting them to take breaks is something that can really help young people to find a little bit more balance. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (21:08): 

And you’ve talked a bit about the community and the social activity that gaming can bring children. How can parents encourage their kids to engage in these social activities such as the online communities or eSports teams, while also ensuring their safety and wellbeing? 

Nikki Taranis (Guest) (21:25): 

Again, having really open and honest conversations as early as possible about what the online world of gaming looks like, what the dangers are, the potential challenges and the benefits are. Having that open conversation from as early as possible with children is so important for them to understand A, that a caregiver can be open and transparent in regards to communicating any challenges that they might face when they’re engaging in these communities, but also to make sure that you’re communicating to a child exactly what might be some of the dangers and things for them to look out for when they’re engaging with lots of other children, young people, and potentially adults online, particularly in regards to massive multiplayer online games or things like eSports where they might be discussing things with many different people. 

(22:22): 

And the big part of that that I just really want to reinforce is that we want to make children and young people feel safe to discuss their experiences online with us as caregivers. That’s one of the most important elements of providing safety. If a child feels like when they’re exposed to something on the internet that maybe is inappropriate, be it language or behaviour or content, if they don’t feel that they can go to their caregiver and share that experience without there being a negative consequence such as the internet’s getting turned off right now, or you don’t get to play that game again, they’re not likely to share that. They’re going to keep it to themselves because they’re going to want to avoid that consequence. 

(23:02): 

So we want to make sure that A, we set up children to understand the expectations and have these views together in sharing information with them and being open, but also making sure that they know that they can come to you and that there won’t be a consequence for them sharing that information. Even if it means maybe they did something wrong, maybe they clicked a button or maybe they shared some personal information they shouldn’t have, even if they did those things, if they’ve come to you and shared to you openly and honestly that that’s what happened, they shouldn’t be provided with a negative consequence because they’ll be highly unlikely to ever share that again and unfortunately might be exposed to much more significant dangers on gaming. So that would be one of my biggest come aways from this is certainly those open and honest conversations about safety. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (23:49): 

And I’m thinking that also it’s important to have conversations about what information about themselves they should share. It’s sort of like online stranger danger. 

Nikki Taranis (Guest) (23:58): 

Absolutely, because there’s some things as adults that we take for granted in regards to what we share and don’t share, and children and young people don’t always have that capability, so we need to guide them in that area. And it might be really simple things like we don’t share our address or we don’t share our phone number, or we don’t share specifics of our family such as the names of family members or our surname. And it might be things like if you’re taking a photo, say for your profile, making sure that there isn’t any personal identification in the background, because are things that kiddos wouldn’t think of but could have a substantial impact on their safety. So making sure they’re aware of those things is super important. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (24:39): 

And what would you say some of the warning signs are that children may be developing problematic gaming habits? 

Nikki Taranis (Guest) (24:45): 

We certainly see with children and young people who are engaging in that excessive gaming, so many hours a day, are showing physical symptoms. So they’ve got a hunched posture, they might have headaches, they might be experiencing fatigue and eye strain. So you might see that in a young person, you might be seeing aggressive or irritable behaviour during game playing, but also when there’s limits or they’re being taken away from gaming. For instance, it’s dinner time, everybody hop off your game, you might be seeing a change in behaviour that’s quite significant indicating there’s an issue there with their gaming. 

(25:20): 

And you might be seeing some obsessive behaviours, so the moving away from other activities and engagement that previously gave them a sense of positive reward and instead, moving towards gaming far more and becoming preoccupied with the entire world of gaming. So if they’re not playing a game themselves, they’re talking about games, if they’re not talking about games, they’re watching YouTube where people are playing games and their life’s becoming quite consumed by this one element, which is gaming. And the other area that you might notice as a caregiver challenges with is schooling. You might see a reduction in their schoolwork or their connections with their peers. You might get feedback from their teachers that there’s concerns about their ability to focus in class because they might be tired as a result of excessive gaming. So those are some of the different areas that parents might see some indications of that gaming might be taking over for that young person. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (26:19): 

Oh, that’s fantastic. Really tangible signs that parents can look out for. How should parents respond when their children do come to them with something that’s gone wrong on one of these community gaming sites? And you’ve talked about obviously the consequences, not saying, “Right, you can’t play that game anymore,” or turning off the internet, but what is an appropriate response? 

Nikki Taranis (Guest) (26:39): 

I say one of the best responses is thanking them for coming to you and giving them positive acknowledgement and reinforcement for the fact that they felt like they could come and let you know about what happened for them, and making sure that they know that they’re listened to and that any concerns or worries about their time on the internet is taken seriously. So really just listening to them first is one of the most important things you could do, is sit there, listen to what they have to share, and then actively ask follow-up questions if you want to find out more information or understand more what’s happened. 

(27:16): 

It’s really important to validate children’s feelings, especially when it comes to maybe their feeling of being bullied by others, to understand that as an adult you might not have had that experience of being online on a game and someone saying something, and that’s an experience of bullying because you might’ve only experienced that in real life, but for that child, that has felt like an experience that has made them sad or distressed. So being able to hold that feeling and validate for them is really important. Making sure, again, that you’re gathering that information to have a greater understanding about what’s happened so that if it is a more significant issue or concern, you can follow it up, and helping the child to take action, that’s really important because there might be some things that they can do. They can possibly decide that they want to block a user or that they want to report someone or that they want to provide feedback about an element of a game that’s had an impact. 

(28:10): 

So there’s all these different actions they can take and to know that their caregiver will support them with that can really bolster their sense of confidence and ability to do it. Just let them know that you’re there for them and that after this has happened, something might happen again and that they’re safe to come and discuss that with you. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (28:25): 

As a mother of teenagers, myself, probably like many of our listeners, I don’t actually know all the ins and outs of the games that my kids play. What can parents do to educate themselves a bit more on a game? I have tried to play a few games and not gotten very far. It’s not a skill of mine. 

Nikki Taranis (Guest) (28:42): 

Well, it’s great to hear that you’ve had a go. I think that that’s absolutely fantastic, and I’m sure that your children would’ve been stoked with the fact that you gave it a go and they probably love that you weren’t any good at it. There’s a few different ways that parents can see what games are like and get an experience of them before they purchase a game. So one of those is actually to hop on YouTube and have a look. There are things called playthroughs, which many people do. There’s gamers who play games and then they put their play experience online. That’s something the children and young people in our caregivers lives might already experience them watching because that’s something a lot of kids who like gaming like to do. 

(29:23): 

But super beneficial for caregivers because it can give them a really in depth but quick overview of what’s actually happening in that game, but also the culture around it, because you’re not just watching the game be played, you’re watching somebody who regularly engages with that game playing it. You’ll often see too, if there’s commentary or you can read the comments down below, you can see the general culture that surrounds that game, and you can make a determination on whether that aligns with your views and values and something that you would like your child or young person to play. 

(29:57): 

And you can also get demos of games as well, especially on a lot of the platforms where you purchase online, such as Xbox or the Nintendo Switch. You can get a free demo that’s short and you can play or look through or even have the young person play with you accompanying them, sitting beside them to get a good understanding and maybe even make that choice together of whether or not that’s a game that we will pay for and that we will spend time playing. So there are different opportunities for caregivers to take, and I also absolutely love the one that you have taken, which is sitting down and having a go yourself. It can be really challenging and for a lot of caregivers, extremely boring, but it gives you such a good understanding of what that person in your life enjoys, what they love, and sharing that with them, not only to understand it more, but also as a form of connection can be really strong. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (30:51): 

Nikki, it’s great advice and it has been really fantastic speaking with you today about the ins and outs of gaming. I certainly have learned a lot myself. Before we finish up, I wanted to know, from everything we’ve spoken about today, if parents only remember one message, what would you want that to be? 

Nikki Taranis (Guest) (31:07): 

The one message I would want caregivers to go away with today would be to create balance. Gaming is wonderful. I love it. I have seen young people benefit from it greatly, but it also poses certain risks and challenges like we’ve discussed. And the best thing that you can possibly do is to strike some sort of balance between gaming and other pursuits which help healthy development, like sports and hobbies, peer socialisation, and anything else that can reduce the negative impacts of gaming and increase the positive impact. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (31:40): 

Thank you so much for joining us today. It’s been a pleasure. 

Nikki Taranis (Guest) (31:43): 

Thank you for having me. 

Narrator (VO) (31:46): 

Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au/families for a wide range of free information and resources to help support child and family mental health. Emerging Mines leads the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health. The Centre is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.