Transcript for
How communicating well can keep separated families connected

Narrator (00:02):

Welcome to the Emerging Minds Families podcast.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (00:06):

Hi. I’m Alicia Ranford, and you are listening to an Emerging Minds Families podcast. Before we start the conversation today, we’d like to pay respects to the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains. We also pay respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, their ancestors, and Elders past, present and emerging from the different First Nations across Australia. Today, I’m delighted to be talking with Leigh and her daughter Charlotte. Together, they’ve had to navigate through some pretty complex times, and are here to talk with us about what has helped them communicate, and stay connected. Hi Leigh and Charlotte. Thanks so much for joining us today.

Leigh (Guest) (00:47):

Thanks for having us.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (00:48):

Lee, perhaps you could start by telling us a bit about who is in your family.

Leigh (Guest) (00:53):

Sure. So I have a 15-year-old daughter, and a 12-year-old son. I separated from their father when my daughter was 3, and I was pregnant with my son at the time. My ex-partner is now remarried, and he has 2 children from that marriage.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (01:11):

And what has been your experience of navigating the relationships for your children when the dynamic of your family changed, and the children’s father built a new relationship and family?

Leigh (Guest) (01:21):

So definitely tricky. So one of the things that we always did was work on putting the children first. So it wasn’t about his ego, or my ego, or who was right, or who was wrong. So it was about what was best for the kids. And sometimes within that we, or, me in particular, I had to look for the silver lining. So for instance, with his wife, it can be very challenging to get along with your ex’s new partner, or wife. Looking for the silver lining was that she always had the children welfare. They were in baths. They were in bed on time. Anything I asked of her of the children, she generally did. It is really tricky in general navigating with your ex, his partner, and their family.

(02:06):

It’s you’ve got to be diplomatic in your approach to it, because at the end of the day, that’s still your children’s family, and they’re not going anywhere. And for me, that’s my son and daughter’s dad, and their family. So no matter what my feelings are, that’s not going to change. And the more of adult that I can be about it, the better it is for them.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (02:30):

And what do you think is important when talking about these new connections that your children now have with their dad’s family?

Leigh (Guest) (02:35):

Being diplomatic is definitely a huge thing, not bringing my opinion into it. So I learned very early on to say things like, “How did that make you feel? What are you okay with that,” or, “Whatever. You talk to your dad about that,” trying to take my emotions out of it, and put the onuses back on my children for them to advocate for themselves with that relationship as well. But it’s definitely tricky, that’s for sure. And keeping in mind, your children are half you, but they’re also half that other parent as well. And if you’re not saying stuff about that parent that they’re bad, or they’re wrong, or something like that, I don’t want my children to think, “Well, I’m half them. So does that mean I’m bad, or I’m wrong,” or to take on any of those feelings for themselves as well.

(03:22):

So I think that that’s really important, and teaching the children about boundaries as well. So we acknowledge that through various things that the separation was hard, things that came afterwards hard as well, and sometimes that there’s just no sugarcoating that. So I think it’s being honest with them, but to a certain degree as well without rubbishing that other person.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (03:43):

And Charlotte, what do you value most in regards to how mum talks to you about what’s going on around you, and these relationships in your life?

Charlotte (Guest) (03:50):

I like that you paid attention to my body language, and I could be saying that I’m okay with what happened, or how I felt, but you can tell by my body language that I’m just saying that, and it’s not okay. You soften the conversation when we’re talking about deep things like that, and you treat it kindly. You read emotions. Instead of after asking how we feel, and you start to get emotional about it, you ask how you can help us, instead of just trying to. You ask us what we need.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (04:20):

What do you both think can be the trickiest part of having these conversations?

Leigh (Guest) (04:24):

Not to get defensive. So sometimes, I may feel like I have to be in competition a little bit sometimes with either her dad, or the wife, or sometimes if the kids will say something about their weekend, or being there, or I automatically feel that need to compare. And sometimes, I will feel defensive, realising that it’s not a competition, and that we’re both very different people raising the same children. So I know that’s something for me that I have to check myself, and remind myself that at the end of the day, when we put all our egos aside, we all want the kids to be happy. That’s the main aim. And I have to keep coming back to that in my head.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (05:08):

Are there things you find tricky, Charlotte, in having these conversations?

Charlotte (Guest) (05:12):

When we tried to talk about something serious in relationships, and emotionally when I was younger, I’d always used to be like, “Yeah. Whatever. It’s not serious. I don’t care about that.” Because a lot of kids get not grossed out, but grossed out basically by talking about deep things with their parents, because that’s their parent.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (05:32):

Charlotte, do you feel that because mom did talk to you about these tricky things when you were younger, now that you are a bit older, you don’t find them embarrassing anymore, because mom set the standard, and you know that she’s going to talk to you about these things, and it’s okay?

Charlotte (Guest) (05:47):

I honestly tell my mom everything now, everything. There are no secrets. Nothing is embarrassing, because when I was younger, you never judged me. She never told me that my feelings I was being overdramatic, or those sensitive, or personal things were, “That was too much information,” or, “I didn’t need to know that.” Anything I said, it was all okay. So I’m okay with talking about those things now with my mom and my dad, because I know I’m not going to get judged. So it’s not embarrassing anymore.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (06:17):

Charlotte, when I spoke to you and mum before, I understand that you have found a great way to communicate about some of the more trickier stuff. Can you tell our listeners about what you do?

Charlotte (Guest) (06:27):

Yes. So me and my mom never used to be the best at communicating, because in these type of fights, we both get very defensive of ourselves. So even though when you try to talk about it calmly, that wall between you guys will go up, and you will always end up arguing, because you never speak calmly about these things while talking. So I created a book, and it is called Mom and Charlotte’s Communication Book. And what I find a bit tricky to express something, or discuss something, when I know what’s going to end with an argument, I write down all my feelings, and how I feel into this book. And I never say anything hurtful, or things you don’t mean on paper. You always think about it first, and it’s always calmly, and you can think over it. And then I leave it in my mom’s room, and then she reads it, thinks about it, and then she replies.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (07:21):

And how do you find using the book Lee?

Leigh (Guest) (07:23):

I really like it, because it really gave me a really in depth look at Charlotte’s point of view for things. And it really taught me not to assume, and to really see her point of view. And when we both literally laid it out on paper, we could see where each other was coming from. And my point was valid, and then to see how Charlotte felt about that. And sometimes I would assume about why she was behaving in a certain way, or doing, or not doing something. And then when I read about how she was feeling, or why that was happening, instead of feeling angry, or frustrated with her, I became sympathetic, or compassionate, because I understood what it was that was then bothering her. And then we could look at it in a different way, instead of just both getting defensive, or fighting about it, because we both think we’re right when in some degrees we are. But yeah. It just helps us to see each other’s side.

(08:18):

So sometimes we will be having a in-depth discussion, or sometimes a debate in the book, and you can be feeling quite heated, or emotional, or defensive about whatever it’s in. And then as the book goes back and forth, but it’s almost a secret conversation, because then in our everyday life, we won’t always talk about what is within the book as well.

Charlotte (Guest) (08:40):

We don’t talk about what’s in the book. What happens in the book stays in the book.

Leigh (Guest) (08:43):

Stays in the book. Yeah. And it can be, and sometimes I know particularly for myself, when Charlotte writes something in, that I may not reply straight away. So I might take a day or so just to really think about your response, and let it settle, instead of reacting. And whilst our secret conversation is happening, normal life is happening at the same time. And sometimes, that can be a bit funny.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (09:06):

How fantastic though that you can take the time to really be curious about what each of you are thinking, and work through your responses in a calm way. And I love that the rule is is that in everyday life, you still just carry on as normal, because you know that you’ve got this secret conversation going on, and you’re going to work it out in the book. Lee, in more recent years, I understand there have been other challenges in maintaining the children’s relationship with their dad. Could you tell us a little bit more about that?

Leigh (Guest) (09:33):

Yeah. Sure. So about three years ago, their father was incarcerated. So that in itself has been challenging into the lead up, and then of it actually happening, and then obviously changed our whole family dynamic, and then trying to find a new sense of normal again. When it first happened, and we knew that there was a possibility that he would be going to prison, that wasn’t hidden from the children. So they were told that that may happen. And obviously, a lot of questions surfaced about usually children watch movies or cartoons as bad people go to jail, and stuff like that. And I still say about their dad, and I navigated it at the time was, “He’s not a bad person, and he’s not a bad person. He has made bad choices, and now this is the consequence for his choices. And he’s learning from his mistakes,” but we’re really proud of what he’s doing in there, and how well he’s behaving.

(10:27):

We’re proud of that. So he is making the best of the circumstances that he’s got, and that’s afforded him some special privileges with where he is. And we don’t look at it that, “He’s this bad person in a bad place.” We look at it as that he has made some poor choices, and now-

Charlotte (Guest) (10:43):

He made mistakes, and he is learning from them.

Leigh (Guest) (10:45):

He is who he is. I think that’s the thing to take away from it is, then we just accept that that’s him. Sometimes he can be really on top of his game, and then sometimes, not so much. Sometimes he can call all the time, and then sometimes, he won’t call for some time. And we just learn to roll with him that that’s who he is. And it’s not anything for the kids to take personal, because they have no doubt about how much he loves them, and how much the kids love him. That’s never in question, and teaching the kids not to take his actions personally, because it’s not about them. It’s about him.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (11:20):

So that’s obviously hard of how you’ve navigated this new dynamic, and the relationship that they have with their father.

Leigh (Guest) (11:25):

So if you have someone close, or someone you know in prison, or you have children with someone in prison, depending on the different circumstances, or why they may be in there, it’s all different. But I don’t see him as a threat to my children. They were never not safe, or in danger, or anything like that. And I don’t feel like he’s threatening in their lives in any way. And therefore, I don’t want to remove him from their lives. At the end of the day, it’s their dad, and nothing is going to change that. And I feel like my children do better, and he does better when they have that connection together. And I don’t have anything in place, and I won’t, as in he can call the kids as much as he likes. And he has able to call their mobile phone. I have a home phone purposely for him. So he’s able to call them on that.

(12:14):

The children write him letters. So on the side of the fridge, we’ve got pre-addressed envelopes, and stamps, and stuff like that that at any time that they can write him a letter, and seal it. I don’t read those letters, or anything like that. They can write how they feel, and send that to him, which I find is a good tactic over the years of if they’ve been upset about something, or they’re angry about something, they can put it in a letter, or if they miss him, they can put him in a letter. And to his credit, he will generally always rings after he receives a letter to say he got it, and will talk it out. If it’s, “I’m angry with you because,” he will ring, and have that conversation. So yeah. That’s a good thing.

(12:51):

And then his wife is really good as well. So if anything is happening with the kids, and I want him to know something fast, I’ll let her know. And generally within a day, he’ll call me, or check in just to make sure everything is okay, and then do follow up phone calls, and stuff like that, to make sure the situation is now settled, or what’s going on with it.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (13:11):

And Charlotte, have you found these are good ways for you to be able to communicate with him?

Charlotte (Guest) (13:16):

Yes. I really like sending him letters. When you’re on the phone, you don’t think of much that’s happening. You just think about that moment, and when it all goes on paper, one subject leads to another, and before you know it, you’ve done the whole page. So you can really get everything out. And he calls, and he thoroughly reads it, and if he’s confused, I’ll explain to him what I meant, or just things like that.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (13:42):

And Lee, what are some of the things that have helped you to talk and communicate well with the kids about what is going on, and the relationship with their dad? And I’m thinking about for our listeners, the practicalities of how you do this.

Leigh (Guest) (13:55):

So definitely the environment in which you talk to the kids is really important. So I always find the car the best. It’s also the placement of where you’re sitting, because it’s not confrontational when you’re side by side, where if you are at home, or you are sitting across from someone, or sometimes it can be confrontational. And I think finding that spot where it’s comfortable to have those chats, the environment does play a big part. My lovely daughter here, she is a night owl, and I’m not. So it means generally when I’m about to go to sleep, or when I was ready to go to sleep an hour ago, and she wants to come in, and have a big chat.

Charlotte (Guest) (14:33):

Kids always feel more emotional at night, because it’s when they getting tired, they’re really seeing their walls, everything that stops them from talking. So around nine o’clock when you are ready to hit the hay, and I’m just sitting there thinking about the stuff, and I’ll go, “Oh. I should tell mom.”

Leigh (Guest) (14:47):

I try to listen, and if I feel like it’s really important, or if is generally about their dad, or they’ve got big emotions about something, I will listen. And I just have to suck it up virtually that, “It’s late at night. I want to go to sleep, but now they want to have a talk.” But-

Charlotte (Guest) (15:02):

Oh. You always did. Especially when it first happened. And then I was still trying to understand the whole thing has happened, what happens, it’d be a Sunday night at 11 o’clock, and I’d wake you up, and I was crying. And no matter what, you’d still get up, turn the lamp on, talk for an hour if I needed it, even if you started at 5 the next day.

Leigh (Guest) (15:18):

One of the things I think I’ve definitely learned is you’ve really got to pick your time when you talk to the kids. So definitely, definitely, definitely not when they walk in the door from school, because they’re already barreled. They’re done. They’re done for their day. They’re tired. They’re hot. They’re bothered. They’re hungry. So it’s really about choosing the time that you speak with them. And I always find it’s really nice to have that connection with them first. So it could be spending that little bit of quality time with them. Lots of things in our household revolve around food. So it could be, “Let’s go to Starbucks,” and we’ll get a drink. And sometimes, it’s just sitting in there, and you’re having a nice drink together, and conversations will start. And before you know it, it’s all getting pulled out.

Charlotte (Guest) (16:00):

Some of the best conversations I’ve had with you is around nine o’clock when it’s just you and me, and I’m going, “Oh. I feel awful, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” And you’re like, “Come on. Hop in that car.” And then we drive to Macca’s, eat a sundae, and I’m sitting in the car park crying. And it’s just a good way to have a conversation.

Leigh (Guest) (16:19):

I always say to the kids is I don’t care who they talk to about it, as long as they’re talking about it. So you don’t hold it in. And it’s okay if they don’t want to talk to me about it. I get it. There was a time that they were seeing psychologists when all this stuff happened with their dad, and sometimes, they preferred the school counsellor. Sometimes they wanted to talk to [inaudible 00:16:38]. And for me, it doesn’t have to be me, the person that they talk to, but it’s about talking to someone, and expressing how they’re feeling, and not holding it in, because I feel like even as adults, as soon as we say something, can get it off your chest, you automatically feel so much better. And they’re saying that what is that? “A problem shared is a problem halved?” And I think that’s so true.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (16:56):

And it’s lovely to think that there’s a village, and your village doesn’t have to be 5, 10 or 15 people. Your village can be 2 or 3 people if you know that there’s someone else that the kids can go to that’s really special.

Leigh (Guest) (17:09):

Yeah. Finding your tribe, I’ve talked about this previously, but finding those people that help you, and be there for you. And that’s something I talked to about my kids is that your family’s not always blood as well. The people in your lives that you can create, or it’s the people that you can call in the middle of the night, and that they’ll turn up no matter what, no questions asked, or just, “I need you. Can you come over?” “Yep. I’ll be there in 15.” And sometimes having different people I found navigating the situation even now for different things is having different people in your life for not different purposes, but if I want to have a bit of a vent session about it, and my best friend is the person to go to. When I’m feeling like I’m not doing a great job, my mom’s the person I call like, “Mom, I’m just feeling overwhelmed.”

(17:52):

“I don’t feel like I’m doing good enough.” And she’s got my back. And I’m very fortunate I have these people in my life, my own village that depending on what’s happening, I know that I can call them. And that’s something that I will say to the kids is I say all the time to them that I’ve got them. “It’s okay. I’ve got you. Talk to me. We’ll figure it out.” But then I talk about, “Nana’s got me. So I’ve got them, and they’ve got me.” And it just us, but it’s not just us, because we do have this support around us. And I think my children, particularly my son, really feels that, because I know sometimes if he’s worried, or stressed about things, he’s like, “Oh. That’s okay, because Nana will.” [inaudible 00:18:27] have a catchphrase I tell my children, “I’ve got you, and other people have got me. We are bigger than just us, and when they need me, I’m here for them.”

Alicia Ranford (Host) (18:34):

And Charlotte, it sounds like you, and your mom, and your brother have worked out some really great systems in your house to talk about all things. What advice would you have for other parents listening today who are unsure about how to talk to their kids about something?

Charlotte (Guest) (18:49):

Think about what you’re saying, and think about what they’re saying, and get to the point together. Make sure it’s not all one-sided, and that you are both actually having a conversation. You are not just telling them about it. You can’t save your children from everything, or help them with everything. Sometimes, they just need someone to talk to, or someone to listen to them, not to help them, or solve something, or change the fact that they’re stressed about this. They just need someone to listen.

Leigh (Guest) (19:18):

One of the things that I’ll do is I’ll just ask the kids directly, “What do you need me to do? How can I help you? So tell me what I can do to help you.” Sometimes, it might be a day off school, sometimes, it might be a warm bath, sometimes it might be a cup of tea, or a hot chocolate. It’s just showing them in their love language, I guess, about how you can support them, and love them in their way.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (19:41):

How do you find a balance between supporting your kids to navigate the relationships in their lives, and letting them find their own way?

Leigh (Guest) (19:48):

That is really hard. That is a challenge for me, and in general, and I think it is about really having that open communication. And at the end of the day, I think you’ve got to really trust your children. And we have those really open and honest communication about every single topic under the sun in our household, also teaching the children boundaries within themselves, that they need to respect themselves, their body, how they treat other people, how other people treat them as well, and that you are creating their value system for them. And then as they grow up, and particularly hit those teenage years, they do start to learn about, “Well, I don’t like this way this person is treating me. Well that’s not how I want to be spoken to.” So they do start to navigate things for themselves.

Charlotte (Guest) (20:35):

Normally kids trust their parents the most, because they teach them what to do. They teach them about life, and what life is. They believe their parents over anyone. I’ll ask mom and dad. So I think a lot of parents don’t think about what they’re saying in that moment to their children, because as soon as you’ll say something about them like self-confidence, even if it’s a joke, they’ll take it seriously, because you are the smartest person to them.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (21:02):

So what I’m hearing is that parents and caregivers need to think about how they communicate with their kids about these things, because their kids really do listen.

Charlotte (Guest) (21:12):

They do. They take it upon themselves. Like you said, you’re building their value system. So whatever you tell them, they’re going to take that in.

Leigh (Guest) (21:20):

You are teaching them how to handle various situations, and what their values are, and what their expectations are. So then as they’re getting older, and they’re trying to navigate these circumstances for themselves, they’ve already got ideas. They’ve already got strategies. You’ve already been role modelling to them. You’ve already been giving them these examples. And we as parents, we do not always get it right. That is for sure. One of the lessons that I’ve really had to learn is well two things actually. One is when you get it wrong, as a parent, apologise, because you’re showing your children that nobody’s perfect. They’re not perfect. We’re not perfect. So saying, “Well, sorry, I didn’t get that right. What can I do next time,” or, “Next time, I will,” because it’s not about them having power, or anything like that. It’s about showing that you stuffed up. You’re apologising. You’re learning from it, and you’re moving on.

(22:07):

One of the other things that just comes to my mind is that I think is really important, and it was a really valuable lesson that I learned with my kids, is not hiding my emotions, or my feelings. So particularly when the kids’ dad and I first went through separation is I wanted to be the strong one. I didn’t want them to see that I was upset, or things like that, and I hid it. But what I did was I taught the children not to express their own emotions. And Charlotte in particular would hold her feelings in until it’s exploded and-

Charlotte (Guest) (22:40):

Exactly. You explained it to me like it was a soft drink bottle, and then every time I held it in, I shook the bottle. And then you hold it in so much one day, just keep shaking, and then it explodes, which is not healthy.

Leigh (Guest) (22:54):

One of the other things, can I just add that I think it’s really important as a parent is when your child tells you something, and it’s something that you do not want to hear as a parent, is not to react. So because when you react, or overreact, or anything like that, it teaches the children that you are not someone that they can talk to, or that you are not someone that they can trust, or you can turn to. And it could be something you’re saying, “Well, what you’ve said is really big. I don’t want to react, or overreact to it. So can you just give me a little bit of time to process it? And then can we come back?” And that way as a parent, you can have that, “Oh my goodness me” moment by yourself, while you just digested whatever they’ve told you, and then regroup, and come back, and have that conversation.

(23:42):

Because if something really goes wrong in your kid’s life, or something really bad happens, you want them to be that first person that they turn to going, “I’ve got to tell mom. I’ve got to tell dad,” not, “I can’t tell mom,” or, “I can’t tell dad.”

Charlotte (Guest) (23:54):

You know you’ve done wrong, and all you want is your parents tell you that it’s okay. And you don’t want to be yelled at. You don’t want to get in trouble. It’s so hard to explain.

Leigh (Guest) (24:02):

You want to learn the lesson, but being supported at the same time.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (24:06):

Charlotte, what would your advice be for other young people whose parents might be the same? What advice would you have for them about communicating with their parents?

Charlotte (Guest) (24:17):

They’re not trying to get you in trouble. No matter how they explain it, it’s always be your best interest. It might come across the wrong way, or you feel like you have to be defensive, but from their perspective, they’re trying to make sure that their child is okay, or they aren’t going through something alone. They’re always trying to help you. Even if it doesn’t come across that way, or you don’t want to talk about it, you tell, and explain that to them.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (24:41):

That’s fantastic. That’s very wise words, and I want to thank you both Lee and Charlotte for sharing your experience with us. And I really value the way, Lee, that you’ve navigated through what must have been a really difficult time, always keeping foremost what your children need to help them through, and Charlotte, your very mature way of thinking about communication, and just how well you and Mom do that. And I think that our listeners today will have learned a lot from hearing your story. So thank you.

Narrator (25:11):

Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au/families for a wide range of free information and resources to help support child and family mental health. Emerging Minds leads the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health. The Centre is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.