Transcript for
How to talk to your children about experiencing family homelessness
Narrator (00:02):
Welcome to the Emerging Minds Families Podcast.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (00:05):
Hi, I’m Nadia Rossi and you are listening to an Emerging Minds Families Podcast. We would like to pay respect to the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains. We also pay respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, their ancestors and elders past, present and emerging from the different First Nations across Australia.
(00:29):
Homelessness or the threat of losing one’s home is something that, as a parent, we all hope never happens. But in reality, it can happen to anyone. Job loss, medical or mental health difficulties, family breakdowns, unaffordable housing, or just unexpected life events, such as flood or bushfire. There are moments in life which can result in any one of us finding ourselves without stable housing. Regardless of the circumstances, homelessness is an incredibly difficult journey, and when children are involved, it becomes even more complex. And knowing how to talk to kids about homelessness can be especially hard. Today, we are talking with Susie Lukis and Savannah West, who have both worked for many years to support families navigate the complex and difficult challenges associated with homelessness and unstable housing.
(01:18):
Welcome, Susie and Savannah. Thank you for joining us today.
Susie Lukis (Guest) (01:22):
Thanks, Nadia.
Savannah West (Guest) (01:22):
Thank you.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (01:23):
I wanted to start by clarifying for our listeners what we mean when we say someone is homeless, because I know there can be confusion between rough sleeping, homelessness, and housing insecurity. All can have devastating consequences for families. So, Susie, could you start by explaining the difference for us?
Susie Lukis (Guest) (01:40):
Sure, Nadia. So, we talk about three main groupings of homelessness. So, we have primary homelessness, which is I think what a lot of people think of when they think of homelessness. So, that’s people rough sleeping, that’s people in a car, people that are very visible. And then, there’s secondary homelessness, and that’s really when people don’t have safe, ongoing, consistent housing. So, they might be in short-term crisis accommodation, or they might be in accommodation that’s not long-term. So, they might be couch-surfing, they might be staying with family, they might be paying themselves to stay in poor-quality motels. And then, there’s tertiary homelessness, and that’s really when people have a roof, but it’s very unsafe and very uncomfortable. That’s the poor-quality rooming houses, the sleeping in places that are not safe but are dwellings, we would say, poor-quality caravan parks, places that are not safe and not sustainable and not ongoing.
(02:37):
And housing insecurity is people who are housed, but perhaps a paycheck or two away from losing their rental, for instance. Or they can’t pay their mortgage and they’re moving bills around and they’re potentially taking out credit cards or not. They might be prioritising paying bills over paying rent or vice versa, and there can be food insecurity. So, again, they’ll paying rent or paying bills, and then they’ll scratch around for food. So, there’s not consistent food supply, there’s not food when people need it in the amounts that is comfortable for them. It’s very precarious, although they are housed.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (03:12):
Are there any national statistics around figures?
Susie Lukis (Guest) (03:15):
Yes.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (03:15):
How many families and children are rough sleeping or homeless?
Susie Lukis (Guest) (03:18):
What we can’t count at this stage are people who don’t present to services and don’t identify. So, the stats that we have are the people that we know about, who have presented to services. And this has come from the AIHW and census data. So, in the 2122 financial year, 272,000 people sought help from homelessness services nationally. 652,560 of those clients were children, so that’s up to the naught to 18 band. Over 9,000 under the age of 18 attended without a parent or a guardian, so the adolescents. And 3,535 unaccompanied children, so not in the presence of a caregiver, in 2021, were under the age of 14. It’s an enormous societal issue and it is increasing. Everywhere is seeing increasing numbers of people struggling desperately with the cost of living, cost of rentals, cost of petrol, if they have a job or they need to get to appointments. All of those costs are just cumulative and really drives people into terrible places.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (04:23):
Those figures are quite sobering. You think you have some idea, but you don’t actually know. And then they’re the ones that are accounted for, so we don’t know who is not, like you said, presenting.
Susie Lukis (Guest) (04:32):
Yeah.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (04:33):
Savannah, how does living without a home impact on children?
Savannah West (Guest) (04:36):
Yeah. Every child has a unique experience. They can be impacted by a lot of different things. Could be the location, where they’re living could impact them. Are they engaged in school? Do they have family that live in the same town? Do they have a sense of community? But living without a home, it’s the unknown that impacts people. It impacts children’s nervous system, their window of tolerance. They might be able to go to school, their parents might be able to get them to school, but their regulation and how they’re regulating their emotions does not allow them to stay at school. Kids might stop eating because they’re anxious or they can’t sleep, and there’s multiple ways that children are impacted.
(05:12):
The other thing that can happen for children who are living without a home is they can take on a protector role within the home. They might want to help Mum, or help Dad, or help the parents. They might not go to school because they feel like they need to stay and look after Mum or look after Dad, and all the appointments that they need to go to. They also might not eat because they’re worried about food insecurity. They might have overheard Mum or parents talking about that they’re needing to ration the foods or that they’re worried about that. And it really is like the fear of the unknown as well, that I feel impacts children. A lot of homelessness also is caused by family violence, which adds multiple different ways and how it impacts children, it impacts the brain development and the stress regulation. So, there’s multiple different ways that impacts children, but every child has a very unique experience of living without a home.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (05:57):
And it sounds like some children start acting well above their own years to take on responsibilities.
Savannah West (Guest) (06:04):
Yeah. Well, children, they can see what’s happening. They have an understanding, and sometimes children are talked to, parents are holding their own stress… So, sometimes parents can talk to their children in not age-appropriate language. Might let them know that, “Oh gosh, we’ve only got two grand left in the bank account.” And so, a child will internalise that and want to help and will take on that stress and pressure. I was lucky enough to meet with multiple practitioners before I came and talked with you guys today, and they’re saying they’re seeing more and more that children are hearing adult conversations and are taking on those pressures. The freedom of being a child is taken away in a way when you are living without a home. And that’s not to the parent’s fault, that’s to the system’s fault. We live in a country that continues to allow people to experience homelessness.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (06:47):
And I’m thinking, what about infants? Does that have consequences for infants as well as far as their environment or how it affects them?
Savannah West (Guest) (06:55):
Yeah. Well, you think about the attachment. If the parents, they stressed themselves and they can’t respond to the infant how they always have, the infant is crying and upset and the parent can’t soothe them because they are in high stress, or they’re moving around in different environments so they don’t have the same resources all the time. The experiences for a child based on their age will be different. A teenager, their experience will be different to an infant, also to a child who might be engaged in school versus who isn’t able to attend school.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (07:21):
And the challenges, I’m thinking of families who have added complexities to their daily lives. So, children who are neurodivergent, or have a disability, it must be incredibly difficult for these families in particular navigating the system?
Savannah West (Guest) (07:35):
Absolutely. So, I’ll break them down. So, for children with a disability, there might be access requirements and modifications that may need to be included in their housing options, and there may not be a suitable housing option for them. The other thing is I’ve had practitioners inform me that families sometimes have to pick between services or housing, and that might be a regional context issue. Like regional here, I service the Ovens, Murray and Goulburn area. And I’ve had practitioners report to me that they’ve had families who have a housing option with a family friend or an auntie or uncle in Melbourne, but all of the services that their child engaged with for their disability are here. So, they feel which do they pick and what do they prioritise?
(08:19):
The other thing is a family, sometimes they’re dealing with their own needs as well. And if you do have a child who has a disability without a diagnosis as well, that can look very different. You might not be able to prioritise that right now. So, it means that the child is diagnosed later in life and then their support is started later. So, they might be labelled as a difficult child or a child with behaviours, rather than a child who has a disability and needs structured support because the housing needs come first. The parents are doing the best that they can. And again, unfortunately, the system and how they’re created, this does happen.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (08:50):
And must be so disruptive to the child and what they know and what keeps them safe or their routines, I would say.
Savannah West (Guest) (08:56):
Absolutely. Yeah. And then, talking about routines as well. For children who are neurodiverse, they can thrive on routines. Routines are needed. They can also have increased sensory processing needs. They may only be able to eat particular foods or may have increased anxiety due to emotional regulation. And these things can be impacted when a system may not know how to support these children or doesn’t know what their needs are. So, for example, the food options from emergency food relief may not include any food and neurodiverse child would eat. It’s added stress again. Yeah, absolutely. If you’re in emergency accommodation, this is a new environment that will impact that child’s routines. The clothes available from an op shop might not be suitable for a child’s sensory needs.
(09:38):
And experiencing homelessness can change routines. Not just can change routines, it will change routines. For example, if the parent is unable to get the child to school due to having to leave town or leave the area, or there’s so many appointments you need to attend, it impacts the child’s routine. And I’ve seen in our brokerage, but also just practitioners feeding back to me, they’re seeing a massive increase in the need for sensory items for children as well to help with emotional regulation, which helps with sleep hygiene. It’s vitally important, and unfortunately, sometimes it’s one system for all, and it can be inflexible sometimes.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (10:12):
Families that are culturally diverse with culturally diverse backgrounds and needs and English as a second language, where do they fall in this?
Savannah West (Guest) (10:21):
Yeah, you think about is the service culturally safe? Does the homelessness service websites have a translation option for different languages? Can the families actually find online where to find the support? When they call a service, does it have a interpreter option, a translation option come up first? So, there’s a potential barrier. But you’re also thinking about within culturally and linguistically diverse backgrounds, families who are from a migrant and refugee populations, they can lack resources and support and potentially community due to the small period of time that they’ve been in Australia.
(10:52):
The other thing could be that there could be a distrust in emergency services and authoritarian supports because of what has happened in their homeland. The other thing that could happen is being homeless can re-traumatise children from migrant and refugee backgrounds, bring back memories of being displaced, not sure where they’re sleeping. And the other thing is families from migrant and refugee backgrounds might not have a rental history, may be able to afford a private rental, but are not able to get into the rental market because they do not have the rental history or they might not have the right documentation and security in community. And when people are displaced from culturally and linguistically diverse backgrounds, it takes away their protections within community, and that’s something we need to think about as practitioners as well.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (11:33):
Susie, I was going to say, I could see you nodding your head. Is there anything that you wanted to add to what Savannah said?
Susie Lukis (Guest) (11:38):
I would just agree with that, and I think probably to an issue that might be really relevant in rural areas is that people who are culturally and linguistically diverse don’t have access to culturally appropriate food necessarily. They may not have places where they can practice their faith or have their children included in learning their language. I think that can be really destabilising for the whole family. And I think also if we think about First Nations people and the ongoing impacts of colonisation, and families already have that history of dispossession and separation from country, and the active destruction of their language, Aboriginal law, all of those kinds of things. And it’s still happening today. Children are removed at much higher rates than they are from non-indigenous families. We still struggle to provide adequate supports and services in culturally safe ways with a really strong recognition of what that history, we call history, but for them is still living pain, really.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (12:40):
Susie, when a family becomes homeless and so much is out of their control, why is it important to talk to children about what the family is experiencing?
Susie Lukis (Guest) (12:49):
Children have an awareness of what’s happening. They know something is happening because their caregivers are distressed, had to leave what was home or what was home for a while. They’ve had to move somewhere where I don’t have my friends, I don’t have my pet, I can’t get to my old school, so I’ve got to start a new school, but I don’t have all the things I need. Potentially, we’re in a motel with all of our things in plastic bags. So, they know something is happening that’s causing distress to their caregivers, but children need some help to put that together because what we also know is that children are developmentally egocentric little beings, younger children particularly. And that’s an important part of their development. But what that means is that if they’re seeing distressed caregivers or anxious caregivers or caregivers who can’t provide the comfort and responses that they previously may have, children will take it upon themselves that they’ve done something bad.
(13:40):
“We’ve had to come and live in this motel because Mum or Dad said if I left my bike in the driveway, we wouldn’t be able to stay there and now we have to leave, so that must’ve been it.” Children will make up a story that fits what they’re seeing and what they’re experiencing. So, it’s really important that we are giving them, as Sav mentioned, age appropriate and developmentally appropriate information that says very clearly to them, “This is not your fault. This is something that has happened and it’s a bit scary for us right now, but this is what we are doing or this is who is supporting us or this is how we’re going to find something and we won’t be in this motel forever. We won’t be in this caravan park forever. We are working to go back to living somewhere that’s better and having you at school. But right now it’s just a little bit hard.”
(14:22):
So, that children have a sense of something has happened that’s disrupted us, it is something that’s significant for our family, but also sends the message, my caregivers have got it. I don’t have to manage it because they’ve got it. And we talked about not being able to emotionally provide that and often say this to practitioners, particularly around toddlers. Toddlers have no sense of boundary. Toddlers have no sense of anybody else’s need, and so it doesn’t matter how distressed their parent is or their caregiver is, when they want attention, they want attention right now. And that’s absolutely exhausting and really frustrating for a caregiver who is exhausted, potentially underfed, has no idea where we’re going to be moving to, hasn’t slept, has been up with children or up with their own worry and is trying to manage it all. That’s incredibly stressful. And I think it’s really important that parents understand that toddlers and infants are not being malicious, they’re not trying to make things worse. They’re reacting to the very natural distress of the caregiver and that means they want more comfort because that’s a scary thing.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (15:28):
How can a caregiver give that comfort when they are so exhausted and fighting for themselves and their family?
Susie Lukis (Guest) (15:38):
I think sometimes people think it has to be big things. “I’ve got to take my child somewhere fantastic, but we don’t have the money so we can’t do that.” Or, “I have to buy my child something special, but we don’t have the money to do that.” But it doesn’t have to cost a lot of money. It might be that one night you say, “Do you know what? We’re just going to have peanut butter sandwiches in the lounge room. We’re going to have an inside picnic and we’re going to put a blanket down. We’re all going to go and get our favourite toy and we’ll have some peanut butter sandwiches. If there’s a way to watch something on the TV and if there’s a board game or something.” But it’s those kind of shared experiences that support that relationship when they’re interacting together and when they can just have a bit of fun. So, something simple like that’s a real novelty for children. And it’s really easy for caregivers, “Let’s just make some sandwiches and we’ll sit on the floor and eat them.”
(16:27):
So, just those little things. Or if there is a park nearby and probably rural regions often have more access to green spaces, but similar thing, “Let’s pack up the sandwiches tonight and we’ll go to the park a minute walk down the road.” Those kinds of things that give children that understanding that things are hard now, but we can also be together and have good times together even when things are stressful. And if children are feeling that connection, that’s what brings them down as well. That’s what lowers their stress level as well. And then, you get that positive feedback loop of people sort of regulating together, because actually, it’s lovely for parents to do something that they can see their children are really enjoying. Even the really simple things, dress ups. “You can wear some of Mummy’s clothes and I’ll try and wear your thing on my arm.” Or just those little things that don’t cost nothing at all, really no setup, don’t have to go for hours, like a game of Monopoly. Just those little things make a really significant difference.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (17:22):
And Savannah, I also saw you nodding your head along as well. When we are talking about parents giving children hope in that situation, were there any examples that came to your mind as well?
Savannah West (Guest) (17:32):
Yeah, everything that Susie said is great. And I would just add that, just try not to put timelines on hope, I think. “Well, we might get a house before Christmas,” or, “We’ll get a house in six months,” or whatever because I feel when you do that, it also lets you down as the parent that can also disrupt the child’s hope as well. I think focusing on the hope that’s available now. “Today, I met with a worker named Jack and Jack’s going to help find a house. We’re going to see Auntie Sarah in a week.” Things that are happening now and focusing on, not the smaller things, like focusing on what’s happening now and building hope. But yeah, creating those moments of happiness. They don’t have to be massive. Your child loves spending time with their parents, having a picnic and sitting together, a child having their parents’ full attention. My caregiver is fully with me. That means so much to a child and I think it’s often overlooked by parents because they feel this innate pressure to perform such huge acts of love, but it’s the smaller things that speak so much volume.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (18:30):
I’m wondering if we can touch on the stigma and shame that surrounds homelessness. And I also wonder how parents can reduce the feelings of perhaps stigma and shame that children might feel about being homeless, especially when parents themselves may be feeling similar things.
Savannah West (Guest) (18:48):
All the statistics that Susie was talking about at the start. There’s also another statistic to add to that is we are three months in a row of having the lowest vacancy rates we’ve seen in Australia for a really long time, 0.8% vacancy rates. So, homelessness can also be that you can afford a home, but there is none available as well. I think too, talking to Susie’s statistics is the stigma and shame is so intense and that happens often because you feel alone in the situation. But those statistics are telling us that’s not the case. And I also think it’s vitally important as a practitioner who works in a specialist homelessness service to inform parents and families that they work with that they’re not alone. This is not their fault in any way.
(19:33):
You just turn on the news and you see all the things that are impacting homelessness. The massive increased costs of food, rent, mortgage, inflation, all these things that we as adults are fully aware, but for some reason when we become victims of this system that’s been created, we feel so alone in it, when it’s so clear that it’s not an individual responsibility and the system has done so well at making people feel like it is their fault. Just get another job, work another job. It’s not individual’s fault at all. How could this not happen when so many things are happening against you potentially? I think that’s a really big thing.
(20:08):
So, I think when the parent can feel that it’s not their shame to hold, it’s actually the system’s shame, it’s the government’s shame to hold. I think that can relinquish that, and then, hopefully the child can feel that too. We’ve, as the Statewide Children’s Resource Programme, have written a book called Charlie’s Story and it’s from the perspective of a child who’s experienced homelessness. I think that could be a really great opportunity if parents want to read that story with their child, hearing firsthand how another young person has experienced that.
Susie Lukis (Guest) (20:35):
I was just going to add about Charlie’s Story is that I often say to practitioners, “If you’ve got a parent who’s really struggling with how to have that conversation and really uncomfortable, that it can be a really nice thing for practitioners to offer to read the book first to the child out loud. And then, for them to take it home with them, that they can read it themselves.” So, that can just help parents understand that we can have conversations with children about hard things in ways that are safe for the child and safe for the caregiver. And that’s what we want, isn’t it? We want children to feel that they can talk to safe adults about the things they need to talk about.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (21:09):
Susie, I want to go back to what you mentioned about safety. When it comes to talking to children about safety or helping them to feel safe, how can parents do that? What is the language around talking to your child about homelessness and helping them to feel safe in that time?
Susie Lukis (Guest) (21:25):
I think that’s a really, really good question because it is a time that can feel very unsafe for everybody. It can feel very unsafe for caregivers who have their children in what they see as high-risk accommodation where children can’t go outside, where there are behaviours happening around them that they don’t want their children exposed to, nobody wants children exposed to. Even before you start thinking about safely having a conversation, how do we do that in a way when caregivers actually feel very unsafe because of the physical environment? But I think again, it’s really important that we break it down into little bites. Children will often ask questions and will receive a certain amount of information, and then they’ve had enough and they’ll change the subject or they’ll step away.
(22:05):
So, we can start very gently with just checking out actually what it is that the child is anxious about, because again, we can think that children have really, really big fears and worries, but actually, it’s a little immediate worry. But because we have big ongoing worries, we assume that that’s what theirs is. So, I think if we can find little things that might be a concern, “Are you worried that we are all sleeping in the one room and that you don’t have any space of your own anymore? Are you worried about that sometimes Mummy or Daddy or caregiver are upset? Is that worrying for you that when sometimes you might see me cry? Does it worry you that sometimes we are shouting or I get cross more often?”
(22:44):
And to be able to say, “I know it’s not okay, and I know it’s really upsetting for you that it’s happening because we’re all in this situation and we’re trying to find a way forward. But sometimes it just is a bit stressful and sometimes I do say things I didn’t want to say, and I’m sorry.” Because I think there’s also lots of opportunity to model that kind of, “I did the wrong thing and I’m apologising for it and I’m going to try and not have it again.” Because children are very conscious of making mistakes, particularly when they know their caregivers are already distressed. And so, having a caregiver say, and this is not just in homelessness, this is all situations really, “I’m really sorry I did that. Next time I will try and do A, and to take accountability, acknowledge what happened, and then this is how we’re going to try and move on from that,” is really powerful for children.
(23:31):
And I think it’s too much to expect that parents in distress maintain the perfect facade because people can’t, none of us can when we’re experiencing real distress. And I think for caregivers, there’s sometimes that feeling of, “I can’t let my children see that I’m ever upset or anxious,” but actually that anxiety and distress is very evident for children anyway and very confusing if we don’t give them a context and an explanation. And it sends the message that it’s hard right now, but we can do it.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (23:58):
Along with language and age appropriate language. What are actions that some parents may need to take to keep their children safe when they are experiencing homelessness? Are there things that parents should keep in mind?
Susie Lukis (Guest) (24:11):
It’s like parenting anywhere and any time is being aware of what’s around in the environment, who’s around in the environment. People are moving into new places all the time. There are appliances… And this is just the physical safety, but it’s something that people do have to think about. Are there toasters with dodgy wiring? The oven doesn’t work, but the grill does. Those kinds of things that are easy to just think, “Well, that doesn’t work,” but they actually can be safety hazards. Then I think there’s that emotional safety and emotional regulation. And I think understanding again that it’s not about the things that you can provide, it’s about how your presence is experienced by the child or children. And it’s, again, it’s a really added challenge when there are a number of children in the family with different developmental needs.
(24:56):
Potentially there are children with different abilities, and so how you juggle that… And we can’t write an extensive, have to be happy and play games all the time because that’s completely unrealistic for anything. But creating even those short moments of connection, those short moments of attunement, and maybe it’s being in the bathroom while the kids are having a bath and letting them splash a bit more than usual because we’re just having a bit of a silly bath tonight. Those kinds of things can be really powerful for children. And really, it’s that connection. And again, you get that feedback loop of a parent doing something that their children are enjoying, even in this moment where it feels really bleak. But again, it will lift the caregiver’s endorphins as well, those little feel-good hormones. And it’s not a solution and it’s not trying to make easy fluffy, “Just do this and everything will be all right,” but that’s what maintains things are sometimes all right, those little connections, even just brief ones, colouring in together, sharing food.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (25:49):
What I’m hearing, always finding in those moments of chaos or uncertainty, trying to find those small moments of connection that you can make.
Susie Lukis (Guest) (25:57):
And for some families it works to do that in a routine way. I’ve worked with families who had been terrible accommodation, but they made a point of every night whatever their meal was, always eating it together. So, for some families that maintaining routines really works and for others it’s just a, “Oh look, maybe we’ll go and do this now and it’ll be just a nice thing.”
Nadia Rossi (Host) (26:17):
Savannah, did you have anything to add to that? Anything on safety you wanted to include?
Savannah West (Guest) (26:22):
So, having conversations is vital, but practical things for safety that parents can do is creating a safety plan, a housing safety plan. We create fire safety plans on how to get out of a situation. Fire does occur. So, you can develop housing safety plan with your child and for you as a parent as well. So, you can also identify what’s in your corner and what you have available to you. So, you feel more resourced as a parent, but then also so the child understands what the plan is as well. You could also too, trace the child’s hand on a piece of paper and for each finger, get them to write down a support person. So, one might be Mum. And you’ll be amazed at what kids bring out. They might have safe people they’ve identified who make them feel safe that you’ve never thought about or didn’t think that you could have access to in this situation.
(27:11):
And always doing these things when you’re both regulated as well I think is important. Having these conversations when you both are regulated is vital. And also, getting them to contact their safety people when they have good news stories as well. So, not just for I’m feeling nervous or scared or whatever’s happening. If they jumped in a big pile of leaves or something and they thought it was hilarious, “Oh, okay, on your safety plan, you’ve got Aunty Jenny. Do you want to give her a call and let her know?” So, then they feel comfortable talking to those people and they know they can access those people. And then, for you as a parent, it reinstates that, yeah, there are support people around my children. It’s not just me. And also identifying too, that if you have to leave the town that you lived in or the suburb, it might be that you need to identify the safety people as the services you’re involved in, local police officer, your housing support worker, a local social worker, and that’s okay. It’s just about creating that circle for yourself, so you don’t feel isolated.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (28:09):
Yeah, that’s opened up this whole conversation where I feel like I was mainly focusing on what the parents can do and what the children can do and what you can do as a family is maintaining that connection and that safety and regulation together. But of course, we talk a lot about the village and who is around you and who the safe people are. So, even in that moment of feeling isolated, that talking about those safety people and acknowledging those people in your lives just opens up the family, opens up the situation, I guess opens up the connection outside of the family to those safe people.
Savannah West (Guest) (28:41):
Absolutely. And that will help with what we’re talking about before with the shame and stigma. It does take a village, as they say, and it’s not your shame and stigma to hold. It’s not. It’s the community’s responsibility and you’ve got people who want to support you and who love you. And when you are in these times of crisis, having it visually really helps because when you’re in your own head, you can look at it and see who’s there. And for children, being visual is really helpful. It can be a piece of paper that they can take out with them when you leave the house or that they have on the wall.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (29:12):
Yeah, stick it on the fridge.
Savannah West (Guest) (29:13):
Yeah, make it super available for them and make it visual as well, I think is really important.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (29:18):
Susie, I know you work in the city, and Savannah, you are working in a rural area. Sue, do you think that there are different difficulties families are experiencing when they experiencing homelessness in these areas?
Susie Lukis (Guest) (29:30):
Oh, certainly. Yeah. There’s a lot of differences. I think in the city there are more services, there’s more choice of services, there are more specialist and linked services, there are more resources, there’s more material aid resources, not adequate, but there certainly are more. I think it’s easier for people in the city to feel a bit of a sense of anonymity. Things are happening in a small town, it’s very visible to the community often. People know who you are and, “Oh, I saw them going into there,” and that can be really difficult for people accessing services in their own town. I think distances are much greater rurally. There’s much more public transport in town, and so it’s much easier for people to access public transport often, not all the time, but often is easier for them to find public transport that will get them places in reasonable times.
Savannah West (Guest) (30:19):
I am based in Wodonga, which is on the border. First of all, distance. So, we don’t have a lot of public transport. We have a lot of rural towns that a bus might only come in on Friday, so if you don’t have a car and you’re needing housing support, you could only potentially attend your appointments on Friday. The other thing is you then have to rely on a car, so petrol costs, rego, things like that. We don’t have as many services here, so sometimes things that are doing well in the city we might not have yet, so that causes less choice for clients, for people experiencing homelessness. Because there is less choice as well and you live in a regional town, you also might know the staff and not feel comfortable. Again, that stigma and shame comes into play. You might not feel comfortable accessing the service because your social worker might be your older sister’s best friend.
(31:11):
The other thing is too family violence. We are seeing a lot of homelessness caused by family violence and what happens then if in a regional town the perpetrator is really well-liked, or really well-known, or the perpetrator’s sister is going to be your social worker? So, there difficulties that regional communities face. The other thing is here is also because it is small gossip and feeling stressed to announce that you are needing that support because you are well-known in the area yourself. And an issue that we have regionally is legal aid representation. We only have one legal aid service, so if the perpetrator contacts them first, they will be represented and then the survivor has to find services elsewhere, so cannot access the free legal aid service. That’s a massive issue we have regionally.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (31:57):
I can imagine.
Savannah West (Guest) (31:58):
And then, also when we are working with communities that are quite smaller. So if you’re working with LGBTQI+ communities or Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities, sometimes because the town is small, there might be difficulties within relationships within communities that they don’t feel comfortable going to certain services or contacting certain people. So, there definitely is a few issues, but I will say regional-wise here and across the Ovens, Murray and Goulburn area practitioners are so good at utilising what we have, they’re so innovative, we share resources really well and we work together to try and resolve issues, which I would say is such a massive strength for regional communities as well.
Susie Lukis (Guest) (32:37):
I think another plus that I would acknowledge is that very often the services in regional and rural communities are much smaller, and so they can actually action things faster and people can feel a sense of place in a smaller organisation, whereas bigger organisations can be very clumsy and clunky and processes take a lot longer. And the benefit of the anonymity is that people are not going to be gossiping about you because they don’t know you, but the downside of that is that it can also feel a very impersonal response. Rural and regional communities have a great capacity to really… And all services should.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (33:11):
And I’m thinking when it comes to accessing these services, for people listening today that may be worried about their stability of housing at the moment or homelessness, what advice do you have to them when it comes to asking for help?
Susie Lukis (Guest) (33:25):
I think knowing that the services are there for exactly that purpose. That’s why the services are there. And I think too, having an understanding of things like all of the utility companies have really strong now policies around supporting financial hardship. So, it can be very easy to ignore the bill until the power gets cut off, but actually, contacting your power company, they’re required to have structures in place to support financial hardship, and they will make very good payment plans and we will keep your power on because power’s an essential service, but we will negotiate what works. So, all of the utilities have that capacity too. Well, they’re required to do that, to support the community in that way. If you can find a service that you can access, whether it’s a homelessness service or a material aid service, you ask them because that’s what people are there for.
(34:15):
And I know practitioners hate the thought that people feel they can’t come in the door. We want people to come in the door who need to, and that’s why the service exists. And we know that for some people that support might be really short term. “I lost my job a couple of months ago. I’m starting a new job in a few weeks and I think we’ll be fine after that. But right now, things have really gotten way behind. I don’t know what to do and I’ve just ignored it because it’s too uncomfortable and too hard.” There are services that are set up to do that. There are financial counsellors who have no cost and can help people work out budgeting or can help get debts reduced. There are lots of things that can happen for people because that’s what the system is set up for. It would be great if we didn’t need the system, but sadly we still do. But that’s what those services and supports are there for.
(34:59):
Sometimes the hardest thing is making that first request, making that first step, but if you do that, you will find other things and other places people will give you, which can be very overwhelming again, but some places will support you to do that as well. We’ll sit here with you while you make that call or would it be helpful if I start the call while you are here and then you are happy you can continue with the call and I’ll just go and get piece of paper or make a cup of tea, or something, and bring you back a cup of tea while you’re talking. That’s what support services are for is to support. We want people to access those support and if they’re not sure if it’s the right one, do it anyway. And people will say, “Actually, this is the more appropriate one,” or, “This is not our bread and butter, but we can do that because you come in the door. So, we’ll do that and that’s fine.”
Nadia Rossi (Host) (35:43):
When you present to a service. But keeping in mind thinking about things like utilities, you’re thinking about the physical house, but as well as asking for help for the whole family and children’s well-being needs, keeping that in mind and services directing you to those. But something to keep in mind or something parents might need to know about.
Susie Lukis (Guest) (36:03):
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that can be a really scary thing for lots of caregivers, particularly if, as children, they themselves experienced being removed from the home or being out of their caregivers’ care for a period of time. It can be really scary to think if I say, “I’m struggling with my children, they’ll take my children away.” And actually, services don’t want to take people’s children away. And it’s a real strength to be able to say, “I’m concerned for my child’s well-being and I would love to get them some support.” Nobody would notify Child Protection on that. People would say, “Fabulous. Great. All right, well we’ll have a bit of a conversation about what it is that you feel might be most appropriate and we’ll have a look at what’s around.”
(36:40):
And that’s a real strength for a caregiver to be able to ask for that help for their children, but it shouldn’t be the sole responsibility of a caregiver to manage really stressful situations for themselves and for their children and to heal themselves and to heal their children without support. The help is around and sometimes they might have to wait a little while or it’s a bit tricky to access, but there are supports around and people will try and find something that works. And if the first person you speak to ignores when you talk about your children, talk to somebody else.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (37:09):
That was going to be my follow-up question to that. What if you do reach out to a professional for support and you’re not getting the response or the advocacy from that person you need?
Susie Lukis (Guest) (37:19):
I would be asking, “Do you know of somebody who works with children? Do you know if someone who can support my children because that’s a really significant need for me? I know I can probably manage this, but I’m really concerned for my children. Can you find me somebody?” And if they say no, and it’s a very hard thing for people to do, you can say, “Is there another worker here who might know a bit more, who’s worked more with children or knows more of the services?” And most ethical organisations should say, “Oh, actually that’s a good point. Yeah, I’m only new. I’ve just started or I’ve just moved to this area, so I don’t know this area. I’ll go and ask somebody.” That’s a reasonable request. One of those things that I would say just keep pushing, just keep asking.
Savannah West (Guest) (37:54):
I would say too, when you work as a social worker for a while, it just becomes so normal what the intake process is. And I understand that people might be listening don’t even know what that means. So, when you engage with a housing service or you are getting support, your first appointment will be what’s called an intake appointment. So, they’ll ask you basic questions, your name, what your family structure looks like and what you are struggling with. You do have a right within your intake, if you don’t feel comfortable with questions to say, “I don’t feel comfortable answering that.”
(38:23):
The other thing that I think is really important for people to remember is the services are voluntary. If at any stage you don’t feel comfortable or you don’t feel it’s right for you, you can just say, “No, I don’t want to come to the appointment. I’m going to take six months off from this, I’ll come back to it.” That’s okay, you can do that. Just because you’ve met with the service doesn’t mean you have to continue with them. And also, what Susie was saying in regards to if your questions, sorry, Nadia, about not getting the response and what to do. Every organisation has to have a complaints process as well.
(38:53):
If you just Google the organisation you’re with and their complaints process or in your first appointment say, “Can I also have a copy of the complaints process?” You can make a formal complaint. They’ll usually go to the person’s manager. And it’s written, you’ve said, “I felt my children weren’t seen. I want my children represented as well.” And organisations will take that feedback seriously and they’ll do something about it as well. And further, again, if you don’t feel like you’re still not being supported or your children aren’t being seen… But the other thing is too, if you have children who have a disability or yourself have a disability, I’d be reaching out to advocacy agencies and asking for a support person from that advocacy agency.
(39:30):
So, for example, locally here we have the Regional Disability Advocacy Service, RDAS. So, if someone was trying to access homelessness support and they felt like there wasn’t an issue, but they just, for example, wanted support, they could ask for someone. You can also bring a support person to your appointments. So, if you’ve got a sister, brother, auntie, uncle, friend, a family member who makes you feel comfortable, even a work colleague, someone that makes you feel comfortable, you can say to your service, “I’m also going to bring a support person.” And that can be good too, because when you’re getting so much information and you are in a heightened stage yourself, you might not retain everything and you might forget to ask things that you really wanted to ask. And organisations are open to that, they’re happy for that. Their preference, they want you to be comfortable, so a support person is okay.
Susie Lukis (Guest) (40:16):
I think too, people present at a service and they perhaps are people who are culturally and linguistically diverse. If they’re engaging well with a service, they can have somebody linked to their cultural and linguistic group. They don’t have to leave this service. It’s not one or the other. So, practitioners should be asking people, “Would you like to be linked with the community here that represents your culture group or your language group? And they can perhaps provide some specialist stuff, but if you’re happy to keep working with me, then that’s fine. You can do that.” And similar with First Nations people, they can access local healing services and they can stay engaged with the mainstream service, or they can choose one or the other. That’s people’s rights and people’s choice to do that.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (41:01):
That is some amazing advice from both of you. Thank you so much. I think you’re really empowering listeners that may need that advice where you may feel like you’re in a moment of you’ve lost your power, to really know what you’re able to ask for and even expect when you enter a service or when you presented a service, I think is just so valuable. So, thank you so much. Before we finish, I just wanted to ask you both from your years of experience supporting parents and caregivers and families who are navigating homelessness and housing insecurity, what would be the one thing you would want parents and caregivers to remember?
Susie Lukis (Guest) (41:38):
I think for me, it’s about knowing that you can be a good enough parent in the moment. It’s very easy for people who feel distressed and stressed and that they’re doing a terrible job to see people in the community. And it looks like everybody’s got everything handled, and that’s not the truth. So, it’s okay to not be the perfect parent. There is no perfect parent all the time. And it’s also okay to ask for help, whatever that looks like.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (42:00):
Thanks, Susie. Savannah?
Savannah West (Guest) (42:02):
I would say it’s not their fault. They’re doing the best they can despite their situation, and asking and accepting help is the bravest thing you can do. I also would say, your child doesn’t need these massive acts of love, they just need you.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (42:16):
Thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us today. I really value your messages around having open and honest and loving communication and helping children navigate their homelessness experience. So, thank you both so much. Thank you, Susie, and thank you Savannah.
Susie Lukis (Guest) (42:31):
Thank you.
Nadia Rossi (Host) (42:32):
You have been listening to an Emerging Minds Families Podcast. If anything spoken about in today’s podcast has been distressing for you or you find yourself struggling, please reach out for help. You can call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or more resources for support can be found in our show notes.
Narrator (42:52):
Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au/families for a wide range of free information and resources to help support child and family mental health. Emerging Minds leads the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health. The centre is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.