Transcript for
Nurturing the wellbeing of Aboriginal youth
Kahli Regan (00:00): The youth, they know what their kind are dealing with. They’re the best person to be asking about them. They could be our next elders coming through and we need to support them through their childhood, their adolescence, even through adult years, and that. And we need to nurture that, so we’re giving them the skills to be able to pass that down and continue keeping the strong identity, our strong culture alive.
Narrator (00:26): Welcome to the Emerging Minds Podcast.
Jasmine Bald (00:32): This podcast is one of a five-part series developed in partnership and led by the team from the Transforming Indigenous Mental Health and Wellbeing research program (TIMHWB) and the Centre of Best Practice in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Suicide Prevention (CBPATSISP). You will have the opportunity to hear and learn from inspirational Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander experts and their allies in the field of social and emotional wellbeing and mental health. You will also explore key concepts and frameworks and learn how you might apply this knowledge in your own practice to better support the social and emotional wellbeing needs of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children and their families.
(01:09): In this insightful podcast, we speak with Kahli Regan and Tannielle McHugh. Two inspiring voices advocating for the wellbeing of Aboriginal young people in Australia. With a deep connection to their culture, Kahli and Tannielle share the importance of active listening, understanding, and incorporating Indigenous knowledge into research and mental health practises.
(01:30): Welcome and thank you for joining me today. Kahli and Tannielle, would you mind introducing yourselves?
Kahli Regan (01:35): I’m Kahli. I’m a Wongi woman from Kalgoorlie. I grew up there until I was about eight, and then moved to Perth and have lived here ever since.
Tannielle McHugh (01:44): My name is Tannielle, I’m a Bardi woman from Ardyaloon community, also known as One Arm Point community. I’ve lived most of my schooling years in Perth, but I’ve been back and forth to the community. It’s very tropical. We’ve got a lot of beaches there that are crystal clear. I’ve heard that it’s pretty much the north version of Esperance. And we have a lot of islands around there, but it’s very remote. Yeah, it’s a very small community as well.
Jasmine Bald (02:09): And your community, Kahli?
Kahli Regan (02:11): Basically hot, being desert, but it’s stunning. Once the sunset hits the plains, you’ve got the absolutely beautiful red skies to match the salt lakes and that.
Jasmine Bald (02:25): Did you want to tell me a little bit about what you’re doing at the moment? So, how we came into this conversation?
Kahli Regan (02:31): So, I am currently studying honours here at UWA in psychology and I’m working with the School of Indigenous Studies as well as the School of Psychological Sciences, doing my thesis on cultural safety within mental health services.
(02:45): It’s definitely been a personal journey and learning a lot about not necessarily psychology and cultural safety practises, but it’s also been, I’ve been learning about my own experiences as well and reflecting and going, “Okay, I can see how other people do have the same experiences in a way.” And it’s been really validating, when I never really had a lot of that validation.
Jasmine Bald (03:12): I understand that you are involved in an Aboriginal youth reference group at University of Western Australia. Can you explain what the reference group is for and its purpose?
Tannielle McHugh (03:21): The reference group was created to get the Indigenous psych students together, to be able to talk about any issues or concerns we have with some of the units or if there’s anything that we think should change. Just a safe space to be able to talk about it.
(03:42): After my studies, I’m interested in IO psychology, industrial organisation psychology. I’m interested in working with a lot of our mob in the workplace, like in large businesses. I want to be able to help them with their mental side, being able to put up with their work-life balance, and their personal. There’s not a lot of cultural understanding in a workplace, and me being an Indigenous person in the workplace, I can provide that support for them, because I can understand their experience and rather than them having to talk to the big boss, who’ll probably just go through one ear and out the other. But yeah, I can provide that cultural safety for them.
Jasmine Bald (04:26): So, what does cultural safety look like in an organisation?
Tannielle McHugh (04:29): Well, it’s still fairly new at this point, but my idea is just for them to be able to feel comfortable as an Indigenous person in a workplace that’s dominated by non-Indigenous people. Just for them to feel safe or heard, really, because a lot of their problems they bring from home or that non-Indigenous people won’t understand what they’re talking about half of the time. Yeah.
Jasmine Bald (04:57): So, young people, what would you say is the biggest challenge for Aboriginal people today?
Kahli Regan (05:02): Again, the stigma and racism, discrimination, and now that’s still so present and again, coming up to the Voice referendum and that, it’s just becoming so much more apparent and a lot of our young people are seeing a lot of these stories and division and people not wanting people to have a voice. Yeah, it’s belittling and it makes you not want to stand up, and it affects their identity. Yeah.
Tannielle McHugh (05:32): Yeah. Seeing all this negative stuff going around, it makes them feel like they don’t want to voice or tell anyone that they’re Aboriginal, because they’re afraid of the backlash being an Indigenous person.
Jasmine Bald (05:49): How might that stop Aboriginal young people from accessing services?
Kahli Regan (05:53): Well, I guess, there’s already the precedence of people expecting to receive the discrimination and that, when they go into services, because I guess, they don’t know whether or not they’re going to be accepting of the young people’s identity. Or again, as you were saying, what their struggles, being able to know what they’re currently going through, what they’ve been through, what even the parents have been through. And actually understanding a lot of, again, the intergenerational trauma. And yeah, I guess that’s a big thing even a lot of adults and that also face.
Tannielle McHugh (06:32): Yeah, I guess, for these young people, they’re too afraid to voice their opinions because they don’t feel safe, they don’t feel connected with the person they’re speaking to. So, being able to give them a voice allows them to share the issues they’re facing, or if there’s anything they want to learn about even, not just focus on the negative stuff, just be able to help them build that identity.
Jasmine Bald (06:54): It’s disheartening to hear how the expectations of stigma and discrimination already loom over young people seeking support. Building a safe space for them to voice their opinions seems crucial. I’m curious, in this age of social media, what impact could this have?
Kahli Regan (07:1): Horrible. Horrible impact. A lot of it is really negative, and again, it does affect a lot of people’s self-esteem, their identity, how they believe they’re perceived within the community, and not necessarily Indigenous community, but in general populace kind of thing.
(07:32): But I think social media can also be used in the positive light too and give that platform for people to feel like they do have their voice, and be able to be heard moreso than … Hopefully, the positive outweigh the negative kind of thing.
Tannielle McHugh (07:49): Yeah. I guess, a lot of these negative news, it affects their behaviour in terms of drugs and alcohol, because nowadays it’s being seen as normal. It’s common to drink. That’s something you need to do as a young person. Drugs isn’t as bad. And then all these negative news, it just reinforces that behaviour, and there’s no support with that.
Jasmine Bald (08:12): So, what advice would you give to people that go on social media and will troll and make racist comments? How would you address the harm they inflict on young people and emphasise the impact of their actions?
Kahli Regan (08:23): I guess, a lot of it’s like, think of it as your own kids. Regardless, would you talk to your own kids like that?
Tannielle McHugh (08:32): Yeah. There’s really not much we can change about social media, but I guess, just learn to understand people better before you say something that you have no idea about, especially young people, because a lot of people are struggling these days. The issues they bring up on social media could be completely different to what’s going on in their real life.
Jasmine Bald (08:53): So, what advice would you give a non-Aboriginal practitioner that has an Aboriginal young person coming in to see them? What would you say would be important for them to know?
Kahli Regan (09:02): To listen. Openly listen without interjecting, just listen to their story. Aboriginal people are the storytellers. We’ve been telling stories for 65,000 years. We are basically raised on the stories of our ancestors, the stories of our land and basically, everything. It helps us give an understanding of our way of life and who we are as people. And I think a lot of practitioners need to also understand that and realise that nothing is going to be a one blanket fix. No mob is the same as another mob. And again, they need to listen to their own personal story for their own personal struggles, their own families struggles as well, before even attempting to say, “Oh, there’s something wrong.”
Tannielle McHugh (09:55): Yeah. Rather than assuming a solution, listen to them first and then provide the solution based on what they said.
Jasmine Bald (10:04): What would it look like for a young person if they felt really comfortable? What would it look and feel like if they were a really great practitioner that was doing the right thing?
Tannielle McHugh (10:14): I think just the relationship itself, it would feel more like I’m talking to a family member like, “Hey, Sis. What now, Sis?” Or, “Hey, Brother.” Or, “What now, Uncle?” That’s what it is, building that relationship, that rapport. Definitely wouldn’t get it in the first session.
Kahli Regan (10:29): No. Definitely, it takes time. Especially if … I guess, we’re amazing at reading body language. So, the second that a young person might come in and notice that you’re sitting there with your arms crossed or something and you just go, “No, not dealing.”
Tannielle McHugh (10:10): “He’s not interested in me. He’s not going to talk about it.”
Kahli Regan (10:49): Yeah. So, definitely being the open, warm presence and that, is so helpful.
Jasmine Bald (10:57): What are some of the other things that they might be able to do to build on that relationship? What does that environment look like?
Kahli Regan (11:04): Definitely, asking you about their background and asking who their mob is, their country, what’s in their community, what do they love about their country.
Tannielle McHugh (11:13): Yeah. Just have a yarn with them. Introduce them to the yarning circle. That’s the best way to get to know someone.
Jasmine Bald (11:20): Absolutely. Building a connection by delving into their background and understanding their connection to country is pivotal. Why is it genuinely crucial to incorporate the perspectives of youth in programmes and services?
Tannielle McHugh (11:32): Because it’s their future. You can’t help them unless you guarantee that their future is safe, that they feel comfortable, there’s something to look forward to. Rather than a short-term solution, we can build a long-term solution for them.
Kahli Regan (11:49): The youth, they know what their kind are dealing with as well. They’re the best person to be asking about their problems and what they’re dealing with. But again, basically, they could be our next elders coming through, and we need to support them through their childhood, their adolescence, even through adult years and that, because they’re going to be the guidance for the next lot of mob that do come through. And we need to nurture that. So, it’s not necessarily dealing with every generation that comes through. We’re giving them the skills and that, as well, to be able to pass that down and basically continue keeping this strong identity, our strong culture alive.
Jasmine Bald (12:35): What is that deficit narrative? What are those stories of hopelessness? And what does that do for young people, what they see in the media all the time?
Kahli Regan (12:44): It just breaks down identity as well, and if you don’t have that connectedness to your identity and your own culture, it’s so much harder to regild it as well.
Tannielle McHugh (12:56): It builds that barrier. They’re already dealing with issues in their personal lives and everything else that appears. There’s a lot of barriers that they face and it’s just really hard to talk about it and for them to be able to share it.
Kahli Regan (13:13): I guess, also, it fosters the anger and the hatred and that, that’s already there. So, it’s already so hard to deal with and just gets to the point of just-
Tannielle McHugh (13:24): Give up.
Kahli Regan (13:25): Yeah. Yeah. It is that hopelessness. It’s essentially like a learned hopelessness kind of thing.
Jasmine Bald (13:31): It’s disheartening to see how the breakdown of identity not only creates barriers, but also fuels anger and hatred, further intensifying the struggles young people face. So, how would you get a practitioner that’s never experienced that, to understand in some way what the experience might be like?
Kahli Regan (13:47): Again, it’s listening. A very big thing is listening about the stories, and I’m sure you’ll be able to tell the angst and the upset and the agony that’s actually in their voice as they’re trying to recall a lot of it.
Tannielle McHugh (14:02): Yeah. And I think, just learning more. Have a cultural awareness, at least, if you’re going to deal with Aboriginal patients. If you feel uncomfortable talking to an Aboriginal young person, seek other support services. There’s a lot of them out there. And if you’re open to it, learn more about the area that you’re in, at least.
Jasmine Bald (14:24): Thank you. Have you got an example of being able to have that voice and say what the issues, barriers, and solutions are, where it was actually a positive?
Tannielle McHugh (14:35): I think, for me, because coming from a community, I didn’t know what racism was. So, I enjoyed making friends with everyone and being able to share my story with everyone, who I am. Being proud of my culture, my language. I could see how there’s a lot of people that are interested in the story and they’re immersed in it and they want to learn more. And that makes me happy because I’m able to voice who I am, share my identity, and it’s such a great feeling when someone wants to know about it.
Jasmine Bald (15:08): So, what are your hopes for Aboriginal young people in Australia today?
Kahli Regan (15:13): Wanting them to have their strong identity, their strong culture, and basically, let that be enduring. And hopefully, have for them to maintain their connections to themselves, their family, their spirit, culture, land, community.
Tannielle McHugh (15:30): I guess, I hope that the young people today will be able to access that support that we didn’t have growing up, and teach them there’s other pathways in the world. I want to see more young people involved in other areas of work even. Like with us too, she’s in clinical and I’m doing organisational psych, so that’s different. And I think just that really, just being able to see them, and I hope that they can stay strong and be able to reach their goal.
Kahli Regan (16:05): It’s also being that positive role model for more generations to come through and break the stigma as well, because again, these guys are going to be future elders and they’re going to be guiding the next lot of mob after them.
Tannielle McHugh (16:17): And right now, the young people are struggling more than ever. So, I just hope to see them get stronger in themselves and be able to pass that down.
Jasmine Bald (16:27): If I was to get you to describe the amazing things about being an Aboriginal young person, what would those things be? What would it look like and how would you describe them?
Kahli Regan (16:37): We are very self-determined. We are so creative. We’re nurturing, caring, we care for our land, we care for the environment, we care for others, essentially, which I’m not sure if much can be said about others.
Tannielle McHugh (16:54): Just being proud of who you are, where you come from. If you don’t know where you come from, try and take the step to learn about it, if that’s something that you want to do, as a young Aboriginal person, just having that kinship relationship, being able to have a family-based relationship with anyone, building the trust.
Jasmine Bald (17:18): Absolutely. It’s inspiring to hear about the self-determination, creativity and caring nature of Aboriginal young people. Building trust through kinship relationships and fostering a sense of family-type bonds is a powerful approach for young Aboriginal individuals.
(17:33): What would your advice be to practitioners to ensure that they include Aboriginal children’s voice? How would they do it?
Kahli Regan (17:41): Definitely, listen, but again, listen to their story, listen to their family as well. If they come in with their family, try and get to know the family and build that connection as well, because a lot of kids are still learning about their culture as well, but the parents are the ones trying to still encompass a lot of that and pass that knowledge down. So, it’s just include everyone.
Tannielle McHugh (18:03): Include everything non-judgmentally. Try to understand them and their stories, the family, like she was saying. Just notice how they are or how they react to certain things as well, because sometimes they put on a face and it’s really hard to break that down and get the truth out of them.
Kahli Regan (18:22): Yeah. Again, it’s not until you actually build that rapport, you can actually get down deeper and understand a lot more. Otherwise, we’re just going to sit there and go, “Yeah.” And just agree to everything, because you just want it over and done with as quick as possible.
Tannielle McHugh (18:00):
Yeah.
Kahli Regan (18:37): Yeah. Yeah.
Jasmine Bald (18:39): So, what might be some ways that they could get to do that? Are there different ways that they might be able to engage with young people?
Tannielle McHugh (18:46): Kind of like what we’re doing now. Sit outside, have a yarn, just talk before you get into anything formal.
Kahli Regan (18:55): Definitely. Even if you can get away from a clinical setting, if it’s possible, and get to nature. Touching grass, which is the latest thing. Just go out, touch grass, build that connection to the land, and even the cherries, get the fresh air into you, and just be mindful of the environment that you’re in. And again, we’ve got beautiful lands to appreciate.
Tannielle McHugh (19:22): Yeah. Just go off the structure of a holistic background, like the SEWB, they have a great example of what practitioners should look out for, being able to stay connected with country, stay connected with the family.
Jasmine Bald (19:37): How is this maintained to balance the two worlds? You’re in university, that is very high structure, and you come with this alternative knowledge. How have you balanced that?
Kahli Regan (19:48): I guess, I’m pretty lucky, because I get to incorporate a lot of it into my thesis and help be with the Indigenous governance and guidance things. So, I’m able to use my knowledges for more Western practise.
Tannielle McHugh (20:05): Yeah. I guess, for me, because it is hard sometimes to communicate with family back home, but I think just being in a place like this, like Bilya Marlee, just having other Indigenous students around. And that’s why I enjoy going to the reference group, because there’s other psychology students around that are Indigenous, that share the same views, and it’s good to just be able to be around other mob.
(20:29): And I guess, growing up as a young person, I got an advice from someone who said, “If you want to be able to live in this world, have one feet planted with your culture, your people, and have one feet planted in the white world, that’s how you can be able to move on.”
Kahli Regan (20:46): I love that. I haven’t heard that, and I love it.
Jasmine Bald (20:48): It’s beautiful. What does it mean for your family to be studying?
Tannielle McHugh (20:53): I think it’s a very powerful tool for them, especially coming from a small community. There are a few of us, young people, I have cousins that have gone through university, and I think just being able to share that knowledge with the mob back home and vice versa, sharing knowledge of my people down here.
Jasmine Bald (21:12): As we start to wrap up this conversation, what specific aspects would you encourage non-Aboriginal practitioners working with Aboriginal youth, to reflect on and consider changing in their approach?
Kahli Regan (21:24): I guess one thing, listen. Listen wholeheartedly. Don’t interrupt or interject or jump to conclusions kind of thing. But also, use it as an opportunity to reflect on your own potential biases as well, and see what might be stopping you from engaging or stopping the best means of practise that you possibly could be giving.
Tannielle McHugh (21:53): I guess, even in a work setting, I think, just implement cultural awareness training for the entire staff, or even themselves. That’s a small step as well, to be able to help them listen all about just our voice in general, listen to our stories because we’re not lying.
Kahli Regan (22:17): So, it’s lived experience as well, and you can’t fake that really.
Jasmine Bald (22:25): Can I ask one more question? It was just elaborating on something you said earlier, Kahli, “Nothing about us without us.” And I thought you could just explain what that means in research as well, or in policy, and what does that mean to you?
Kahli Regan (22:39): So, there’s nothing about us without us. It’s basically making sure that it’s accurate as well. It’s not necessarily just going, “Oh, okay, we’ve observed this within the Aboriginal population.” But it’s also being aware that’s not necessarily just one lot of mob … That’s not all mob. All mobs have their own different traditions and customs and ways of life. So, it’s also giving power to Indigenous researchers as well, and being able to pass on a lot of Indigenous knowledge as well.
(23:18): So yeah, I think after honours, I’m definitely going to stick within the Indigenous research field. First coming into psychology, I originally wanted to go into autism research and developmental psychology, and then I was given this amazing opportunity to help with the School of Indigenous Studies and I said, “Sure, why not?” And I’m so grateful that I did, because I’m here, I’m learning so much about other Indigenous communities and again, my own personal culture and identity and building that back up. And yeah, hopefully staying in this space.
Jasmine Bald (23:54): So, there’s a lot of evidence based around negative data driven deficit story. How can research and evidence be informed by Aboriginal young people and communities?
Kahli Regan (24:04): Well, the young people, they know what they’re currently dealing with, especially on country and within their own communities and stuff, which drives a lot of this research and is why we need a lot of that Indigenous governance and guidance and basically saying, “Hey, look, we need to deal with this. This is a bit of an issue for us. It’s not just impacting us. It is a pretty general issue that is being dealt with both in Indigenous and non-Indigenous communities as well.” Such as you were mentioning, with a lot of alcoholism and drug use, and even with a lot of the kids still being taken, and trying to maintain these connections when a lot of them are getting broken down.
(24:45): So yeah, the kids are coming through with the experiences of going, “This is what I’ve actually dealt with because of this.” And being able to listen to these kids is huge. It’s valuable … That there, should be your data to be focusing on as well.
Jasmine Bald (25:04): As we conclude this insightful discussion, it becomes clear that actively listening to the voices of Aboriginal youth, understanding their unique experiences and fostering genuine connections are pivotal steps towards creating a more inclusive and supportive environment.
Narrator (25:21): Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au to access a range of resources to assist your practise. Brought to you by the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health, led by Emerging Minds. The National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.