Transcript for
Responding to racism and correcting cultural mistakes
Pshko Marden (00:00):
Hidden racism that people from a CALD background might experience. It could not be as obvious. It could be a way of looking at a person, it could be making some commentary that even might come across as a complimentary, but the other side of it could be quite adverse and it comes from a racist place leaving children and families questioning who they are and what that mean to them.
Narrator (00:27): Welcome to the Emerging Minds podcast.
Amanda Kemperman (00:32): Hi everyone. My name’s Amanda Kemperman. Welcome to part one of this two-part Emerging Minds podcast series on culturally responsive practice. In today’s podcast, parents and practitioners share their thoughts and ideas on responding to racism and correcting practitioner cultural mistakes when they’re working with families with a culture that’s different to their own. Would like to pay respect to the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains. We also pay respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, their ancestors and elders past, present and emerging from the different First Nations across Australia. As a part of our work at Emerging Minds, we’re privileged to partner with a range of leaders who support the mental health of children and families in Australia.
(01:24): Through developing our recent online course, Culturally responsive practice strategies for children’s mental health, parents and practitioners shared their thoughts with me. Throughout both of these podcasts, you’ll be hearing from Emerging Minds family partners, Wei Gao and Renee Romeo and Counsellor, Etty Garabelli, and family therapist, Pshko Marden. Wei and Renee are parents and Emerging Minds lived experience family partners, and they’ll share with us their experiences of racism and cultural assumptions and judgments. Practitioners, Etty and Pshko will talk about how practitioners can respond to children and families experiences of racism and how practitioners can correct cultural mistakes they may make. We’ll start by hearing from Wei who will share her experiences as a parent followed by Pshko practitioner observations.
Wei Gao (02:18): I have to admit, racism definitely exists. Unfortunately, it happens pretty often and did happen on both me and my children. Really, I don’t want any of these things happen to anyone, but I feel this is a good opportunity for us to talk about it, to let more people hear about it so we can do something about it.
Pshko Marden (02:40): There are the more hidden racism that people from a CALD background might experience. It could not be as obvious. It could be a way of looking at a person, it could be making some commentary that even might come across as a complimentary, but the other side of it could be quite adverse and it comes from a racist place even though the person who perpetrating that might not be aware where is it that coming from. But the effect is still there, where leaving children and families, questioning who they are and what that mean to them in terms of the negative effect that would have on them. So that’s the other type of racism where it’s harder to detect and work with when it’s not that obvious.
Etty Garabelli (03:32): A lot of times, I think the focus is on the behaviour and how can I help my child? How can I make them go to school? How can I make them improve their grades? What can be happening to your child? When did you notice that change in behaviour? Did anything happen around it. Not just within the family context, within the school context, can we look at a bigger picture, what’s happening in the world? Because a lot of the times kids, they have access to social media, so there might be things that are not happening directly here, but they might see that are happening to people who are from their community, same colour skin, that they look similar to them, that they might be suffering something in another part of the world and they might think, “Oh, this might happen to me.” And then just create that fear. Even if it’s not happening directly, it might have happened to a friend of them.
(04:25): So you might have a child who’s really having a lot of conflict and the parents are being called at school and saying, “Your child has been hitting, your child is becoming part of a gang.” How do we understand that? Also from a cultural context, sometimes if the child is understanding that of feeling that they don’t belong in that place, then their safe space might be coming together with people from their own community, from their own group. But then there might be other groups that are doing the same and then that’s when you start… There might be conflict between these children and these other children. It’s not to say that they’re trying to… It is not about them violence or about creating this unsafe environment at school. It’s also about the trauma that they might have endured before coming here, but also the trauma that they’re coming… That it’s a product of migration and living in a different cultural context and seeing your parents struggle.
Amanda Kemperman (05:26): Renee now talks about her experiences of racism, including the microforms and how they accumulate whilst managing this as a parent.
Renee Romeo (05:35): I went through these experiences. I was very confused about my identity growing up. I was also embarrassed and ashamed, and some of that came from outsiders and there’s always outsiders that make sense of who we are no matter what. It could be gender, sexuality, anything. When I would fill in a form and they might see different ethnic name, a name that in their eyes is different to them, but in my world it’s just our beautiful names. And so there were those experiences that just continuously reminded me that this is the othering that we’re experiencing. So having my son is an extra layer to the issues that I went through as a child, that my parents went through growing up, that my grandparents went through. And their stories aren’t necessarily my stories, but they’re stories that I was raised with in my childhood. So you’re actually carrying stories and meanings and you are aware of how other people might see you.
(06:48): When we look at the impact of racism in a family that when you have maybe three generations, they start to understand the impact that that has or what the byproduct that has years later. So if that first generation had experiences that kept them socially isolated or kept them within their community or prevented them from certain employment pathways or education pathways, that then is a byproduct that flows on into the next generation and then their children, which is me now, so that third generation can look back and see those pathways. It then means I’m carrying a lot more, I’m carrying layers. And so then when a practitioner will meet me and I’ll be like, “That’s it. We’re done.” They might be thinking what’s happened and I’m talking of an accumulation of experiences.
Amanda Kemperman (07:45): Counsellor Etty spoke about how these conversations arise and notices how it underpins some children’s behaviour. Parent Renee then shares how naming racism can help to address it.
Etty Garabelli (07:57): Sometimes the parents are able to name it and to tell you the experience of what the child has gone through. Other times, it’s most about something that is happening for them at school or at home, especially around behaviour or performance at school. And then there is more exploration about what might be happening for the child. And other times it’s like the person might be talking about it, but it doesn’t look like they are identifying it as racism.
Renee Romeo (08:29): And not using that language and not being able to say what it is continues that invisibilization of racism to go on undetected, not monitored, and allowed to continue. And it can be in really subtle forms that allows it to just sort of continue.
Amanda Kemperman (08:49): Practitioner Pshko explains how he creates a space for children and families to share descriptions and names for their experiences.
Pshko Marden (08:58): In the context of a family or a child coming to therapy and they might have experienced racism, nonetheless there is no name yet, so it hasn’t been named. So a child might be confused, hurt, but confused as what does that mean. Then the responsibility and the duty is on the therapist to create a space, to give a language to name that experience. What does that mean for the child? And that might kind of require if the action of the racism and the effect of it is embedded in the encounter they had. Nonetheless, there is no naming for it. So how the therapists will work with a family, with a child to name that experience, to give that experience a name so we could collaboratively explore the effect on the child and on the family, creating the context where the language become more accessible to them to name it.
(10:01): And that might be through a lot of questioning, starting with the very simple questions. As we talked about the how did that feel? What was it? Tell me that. Was it okay with you? Was it not okay with you? What did you notice say about yourself? If you could describe that feeling, how that feeling might be? What that feeling represent to you? So the aim is to working together to get to that language so they will be able to name it rather than us naming the racism for them. So we have, as a therapist, this obligation to facilitate and create the context for them to be able to name it.
Amanda Kemperman (10:43): Parent Renee also shares how parents can actively support their children if the practitioner invites them into the conversation.
Renee Romeo (10:51): To be involved to say, “This is the impact of this experience or this event.” To be able to say, “This is what it means in our family and this is what it means for our child.” And so that they understand how we feel and also what we want to happen in those instances. Because we are in a position where we can actually do a fair bit of work. We have knowledge, and I think practitioners need to recognise that it can also sit with a family to do some of that work.
Amanda Kemperman (11:28): As a part of many conversations I’ve had, families have told me how the accumulative effect of microaggressions and racism can have them not speaking up and with the significant power imbalance, there are some really helpful and proactive responses practitioners can take. Here’s what parent Renee and practitioner Etty had to say.
Renee Romeo (11:50): For practitioners to take that responsibility, engage with us, talk with us about it, but also to do the work as well and to say, “We’re going to follow up on this.” Not just once time and fix things, but ongoing work wherever it might be, so that we know we had this experience. Hopefully other families do not have this experience that we’ve had.
Etty Garabelli (12:15): Understanding the family that you’re working with. What has been the experiences of the parents? Are they feeling that they’re not welcome here? And then is there any fear for them every time they send their child to the big world out there that they’re also going to be experiencing what they’re experiencing as adults? And how do we work to support the parent within their own experiences so that they can then provide that support to the child without letting what’s happening to them affect what’s happening to the child as well?
Renee Romeo (12:47): There’s work, important work for us to do to counteract those narratives, those hurtful words, those experiences and form our healing and our resilience to then say, “Well, this is also who I am and nothing can shake that.” And so there’s work to be done in that space too. That says who we are, who we think we are, who I am, and it doesn’t matter what you say because I know who I am. And so there’s those narratives that we have to work through with children. We have to do that at a young age to help them formulate, cultivate, craft who they are.
Amanda Kemperman (13:38): I talked with Pshko about how he might invite families to question racist ideas they encounter. He shares how he works to locate them in the context of dominant cultural ideas and practices, exposing power dynamics, aiming to shift blame away from the family. He’s also talking about how he invites families to take a position on the ideas in relation to what’s fair and just.
Pshko Marden (14:04): I feel very comfortable to be talking about that, the dominant cultural ideas and then practises in my conversation with people that I work with. And it’s normally tied to where an idea come from. What’s this origin? Who is it serving? Is it serving the minority or is it serving the majority? Is it a just idea? Is it a just practise? Is it a fair practise or is it not? Who would be disadvantaged from that particular idea and practices? So it’s a conversation that tied with what is fair and what’s just, but it’s also about paying attention to the imbalance that exists between the dominant culture and the subjugated culture.
(15:06): It might be helpful for a few reasons. The first reason that comes to my mind is it helps people to know what is the dominant culture and how their ways of thinking and ways of being shaped and reshaped by those ideas. And the second to know where they are standing in terms of those ideas and practises. Are they okay with it? Are they not okay with it? The third reason is to see whether that is it fair and is it just on the rest of particularly the minority groups where that sort of experience they are experiencing, that sort of events that they are experiencing because of the cultural domination. Is it okay or is it not okay by them to have a stand on that as well?
Amanda Kemperman (15:54): Renee spoke with me about her commitment to racial justice and how she stands up for what’s fair in particular reference to her family.
Renee Romeo (16:03): My decolonizing parenting is that I do that work as a parent. I want to do that as someone that cares about community and about racial justice. And because I know those experiences that my grandparents had and my parents had, and it’s different times, but I wanted to make sure that I was doing as much as I could to take my son on that journey to be able to see what racism is. No one helped my dad when he went through racism. Now I’m going to say something. So there’s this intergenerational element which will come as the generations move on. Is it you look back and you go, “You know what? I now have the words for that. I won’t get fired for saying that that was racist, or I’m going to speak up. There’s things in place for me.” I mean, people still get fired for wrong reasons if they speak up for being racist.
(16:59): So for our children, this isn’t just talking about what racism is. This is also about making sure that there’s representation of people in all walks of life and in all professions that look like us, that look like our children, that look like our partners, that look like our parents. And so if we have a diverse workforce of practitioners, then when you’re walking into a service, you can see it already, someone that might look like me, someone that has a name similar to mine, someone that speaks a second language. And so there’s already this visibility of people that might look like us within a service or a practitioner to choose from.
(17:51): And also things like it would depend, but for even things like if you went to a waiting room and they had books, do those books reflect your client group? Do the posters on the wall reflect your client group? Sometimes they’re a little bit token if it’s just within the flyers and the brochures and posters and signage, but not within the service. And is the service right through to their leadership diverse in representation or is it just face-to-face, that frontline practitioner. So these are the other things I look for. It’s not necessarily, can they name it? Can they label it? Are they aware of it? But what does their service look like and what do their practitioners… I guess what backgrounds they come from? And not necessarily that I’m screening everyone.
Amanda Kemperman (18:46): Now taking a different focus. We also talked about when we made mistakes in practise and how mistakes are inevitable, especially when we’re communicating cross-culturally. Now let’s hear from Etty and Pshko about making missteps and noticing them.
Etty Garabelli (19:02): You cannot not make a mistake. That’s one thing that’s really important. A lot of the time people are afraid of making that mistake and of coming off as racist. And that’s one of the things that actually makes them racist is walking around there because it’s like they’re seeing you as you’re different, too different, when we are both humans. So yes, be conscious of having that cultural awareness, but don’t be so scared that you make it obvious and you make the person feel like, “Why are you so scared of me? I’m not different from you.”
Pshko Marden (19:46): I immediately know that what I have said, I position myself as an expert and my way of approaching life as an ideal way, and therefore her way is not the ideal. Her way is not the… So it kind of demonstrates the powers. If I do it, then you should be doing it as well. And that’s where it’s kind of highlight the dichotomy and the binary that I think. And because I’m in that position and I am thinking about it in this way, then I’m thinking in the right way. And I don’t even need to say that your way is a wrong way because I already established that I’m in a position of power. I am the expert and I know the right way. So you’re the wrong way is already implicit there. So then this is a dangerous phase.
Amanda Kemperman (20:41): Parent Renee offers insight into what she calls racial fatigue that parents can experience.
Renee Romeo (20:48): If you’re mindful that that family or that parent and that child has an accumulation of these experiences in different services, that they get very tired and fatigued, it’s racial fatigue or at just constantly having to go, “Here we go again. I’m going to have to tell you who I am and I’m going to have to remind you how you’re going to keep me culturally safe.”
Amanda Kemperman (21:11): Renee also shares her thoughts on when a practitioner has made a mistake and why apologising is important to her.
Renee Romeo (21:18): This recognises the practitioner’s ability to be reflexive in their practise, their ability to see things from a different perspective, and to recognise that they can make mistakes and we can all make mistakes, and to be humble, and acknowledge that there’s been a mistake. This is about reconciling and restoring things. So it tells me that a practitioner is comfortable apologising, is comfortable learning from mistakes, and can show professionalism to reflect and think about their practise.
Amanda Kemperman (22:07): Pshko shares what’s important to him when recovering from a misstep.
Pshko Marden (22:11): So one thing that I’m quite aware of in my conversation, and especially if I have stepped into a territory where I made mistakes, I need to be extra mindful that my apologies is sincere in a way that is not followed by a but or a however. So this is one way to make the apology sincere and not end up in the justification because whenever there is a justification, it diminishes the meaning of an apology.
Amanda Kemperman (22:45): Parent Renee is now talking about providing an opportunity for families to respond to the apology and how the repair work is ongoing.
Renee Romeo (22:53): Allowing families to respond to the apology or the repair because often it’s, “So sorry about that. Moving on.” But allowing us to respond and say what we would like to say. And recognising that not everyone feels comfortable responding either like there’s a power imbalance, you’re hoping that they’ll still treat you the same way, and that your child will still be able to access the service the same way. So there the power dynamics are still operating. So yeah, making sure that that repair work is ongoing. You can see that They’re reflecting. You want to feel safe, culturally safe and also an option for you to say if you would like to see someone else, there are times when that’s appropriate too. Or just having space for us to make decisions.
Amanda Kemperman (23:52): Parents Wei and Renee went on to talk about how practitioners being open and seeking to learn and understand can be a helpful approach to minimise asserting cultural norms, ideas, and practises on people they meet with.
Wei Gao (24:08): So I feel we all come from different culture backgrounds and even we practise same culture, there are different ways for us to practise. So I feel being curious and humble is really important to be able to learn this specific way of practise of this specific family and person.
Renee Romeo (24:27): The curiosity has to be in a way that doesn’t position us as exotic. And I use that term because we have been told that us and our child is very bit exotic, so we would tend to get, “Oh, I’ve been to this place and do you eat this food?” Or they might say hello in certain language and it’s neither of our languages. Yeah. Does that curiosity go both ways or is it just a one way, I see certain parts of you? And sometimes you can tell their curiosity through their questions. They’re trying to work out your cultural background or your religion or your heritage or something and it’s not necessarily needed. And so it’s about maybe holding back on that curiosity and maybe we’ll share that when we get to know you.
Amanda Kemperman (25:24): Counsellor Etty shared with me how she sees her role and how this helps in sharing power with people she meets with.
Etty Garabelli (25:31): They might be the first time that they’re actually accessing a service. So they might have a lot of questions and they might not even understand why they’re sitting in front of us. And it’s only by us getting to know them and seeing them as humans, who right now I’m here supporting you, but in another context you might be supporting me. So there is no superiority in here.
Amanda Kemperman (25:58): I’ll leave you with a final word from Emerging Minds family partner Wei.
Wei Gao (26:02): If the practitioner being humble and curious asking more questions of you, I feel it will lead to a very good resolution. And please remember one thing, I know it takes a lot for a practitioner to say this and I feel that’s courageous. Meanwhile, for a person to speak up, it takes a lot as well. I think we should give credit to the people who can speak up because it takes a lot and they need a lot of courage.
Amanda Kemperman (26:33): Thank you for tuning into this podcast where Wei, Renee, Etty, and Pshko shared their insights on addressing racism and cultural missteps in practise. Don’t miss out on the second part of our series, Navigating Intergenerational Family Cultural Tensions. For more resources on culturally responsive practise, you can enrol in the free online course, Culturally Responsive Practise Strategies for Children’s Mental Health, available on the Emerging Minds Learning platform. Thanks for listening and all the best in your culturally responsive practise journey.
Narrator (27:08): Visit our [email protected], to access a range of resources to assist your practise. Brought to you by the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health, led by Emerging Minds. The National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the National Support for Child or Youth Mental Health Program.