Transcript for
An interview with Secrecy

Narrator [00:00:02] Welcome to the Emerging Minds podcast.

Sophie Guy [00:00:08] Today, we would like to introduce a special collection of episodes as part of the Emerging Minds’ podcast series. Usually our episodes feature an academic, practitioner or sometimes a child and family partner, who provide insights into children’s mental health. In this series, we meet the characters Shame, Resilience, and Secrecy, and explore the vital function each play in the supporting and/or diminishing children’s mental health. By understanding more about the role that Shame, Secrecy, and Resilience play in children’s social and emotional wellbeing, we hope to spark new ways of thinking about how practitioners can support children’s mental health.

Sophie Guy [00:00:47] Today, we’re going to meet a character called Secrecy and learn a little bit about the role they play in the lives of children who’ve experienced sexual abuse. I wanted to find out how and why Secrecy plays such a profound role in preventing children from speaking up about their abuse experiences. Without Secrecy, these harmful acts against children would be far more visible. Giving children a voice to speak up about their experiences can speed up their access to support and recovery. Secrecy has been extremely reluctant to give interviews, but has decided to make an exception for us today. So let’s get started. So, Secrecy, welcome to our podcast.

Secrecy [00:01:26] Yeah, thanks for having me today, Sophie, but you’re right, I really prefer not to give interviews because my success depends so much on my anonymity. So I really hope that not too many people listen to this podcast that we’re doing today.

Sophie Guy [00:01:41] Well, this is quite uncharacteristic for you then, it seems. I wondered if you could start, Secrecy, by telling us a bit about yourself, for those who aren’t familiar with you and your work.

Secrecy [00:01:52] Yes, Sophie, I could, I think probably the best way to describe myself is that I’m a very powerful voice in a world that works to keep things hidden. My speciality is working to keep child sex abuse hidden in particular. So within that, I trick children into believing that they should keep abusive and harmful experiences to themselves. So that prevents them from seeking help from family members or other safe adults. I work really closely with perpetrators in this work. And so as soon as a perpetrator starts doing their work, I’m influential in making children believe that what’s happened is a result of something that’s very wrong with them and basically helping children to believe that they don’t deserve ever to be happy.

Sophie Guy [00:02:39] So it’s interesting, then, Secrecy, given your nature, that you decided to talk to me today?

Secrecy [00:02:45] Yeah, it is interesting, and very uncharacteristic. But every once in a while, I suppose I like to remind people that the work I do in narrating children’s connections and in alienating them from any sort of support is really quite exceptional. So maybe at this time I’m feeling like I just need to remind myself or need to remind other people about that.

Sophie Guy [00:03:06] OK, so Secrecy, can you describe what it is that makes you so powerful?

Secrecy [00:03:11] My real power, it’s that I’m everywhere. I’m in the air that we breathe, but I’m kind of invisible because people rarely ever notice me and I suppose to be able to defeat me, I must first be noticed. Left to myself, I run around and whisper into the ears of children, also young people and adults. I’m really good at convincing that nobody could ever accept them if they knew the truth. And in this way, particularly for children, I take away their voice. I take away their ability to have a voice, and I make them doubt at every level that they have any right to access any of the support that they obviously so badly need.

Sophie Guy [00:03:54] And what can happen if you convince children never to disclose their experiences of abuse?

Secrecy [00:04:00] All the research and data will now tell you, Sophie, that when children never access the help that they need around child sexual abuse, they can often become more isolated, that their outcomes at a social emotional wellbeing becomes so much worse. In the case of child sexual abuse in particular, I go to work convincing children that they can’t, they simply can’t disclose what has happened to them because they’ll never be believed or maybe even that somebody will be hurt. So together with my great mates, Shame and Self-blame, I can convince children that disclosing the abuse will only make it worse. The people in their lives will be unnecessarily hurt, and then the child themselves will be condemned for what happened. So often within this, I’m really successful in making children never disclose the abuse and at the same time ensuring that they have a really bad time of it, that they disassociate with school, that they might have real trouble with family members, that in later years that they might turn to self-destructive behaviour or drugs and alcohol, or even self-harm. So if I work really efficiently, I can completely disconnect these children. But, you know, once again, this really depends on children not getting the information that they need at the time that the abuse first happens.

Sophie Guy [00:05:22] And what is it that particularly motivates you, Secrecy?

Secrecy [00:05:26] Yeah, that’s a really excellent question, Sophie. I think what motivates me most at the moment is this really intriguing battle that I’ve been having with community awareness, which really rose from nowhere in the 1980s when Australian society started to take these first tentative steps in understanding the extent of child sexual abuse. So I suppose this kind of community awareness was really connected to the feminist movement, which really started to look at violence, not just the number of episodic issues, but as widespread an epidemic and something that had been enabled for many years within families and institutions. So this new community awareness did so much to shine light on how perpetrators recruited me to protect them by making children feel like that it was their fault.

Sophie Guy [00:06:16] So, Secrecy. How have you worked with perpetrators to overcome community awareness?

Secrecy [00:06:22] Yeah, so community awareness has uncovered many of the ways, as I said, that I help perpetrators to use their power to manipulate children into feeling that the abuse was their fault. So given this, I’ve kind of had to adjust my game plan a little bit. I’ve had to become, I don’t know, maybe a bit more cunning in the ways that I can convince children to stay silent. So if there were some aspects of the relationship with the perpetrator that a child enjoyed, if they accepted gifts from the perpetrator or if they shared secrets, I can still generally convince them that they were responsible for what happens. Sometimes I can have children feel so shameful that they believe that nobody could possibly understand if they told them. Other times somebody would get hurt if they tell, or that their family will break up. I’m most effective in these situations. So, you know, you’re right, community awareness is really trying to show me for what I am, but I’m also continually evolving. So that’s a really interesting battle at the moment.

Sophie Guy [00:07:25] And what exactly has community awareness done to show you who you are, Secrecy?

Secrecy [00:07:31] Yes so, I suppose the one thing that they have really done is bought a lot of attention to the fact that one in four girls and one in six boys will be the victim of sexual assault by the time they turn 18. You know, they’re some fairly conclusive statistics. And before people knew that, it was so much easier to convince individual children that it was only them. I really went to work into alienating and isolating children who never really understand that this is such a common issue for children in our society because child sexual abuse remains in Australia still such a taboo topic.

Sophie Guy [00:08:11] And what difference does it make when child sexual abuse is not such a taboo topic?

Secrecy [00:08:16] Well, for one thing, Sophie, many parents know how important it is to believe what their children tell them. And many practitioners help children to make sense of what happened to them as an abuse of power rather than something they did wrong. So the one thing, Sophie, that you might not know about me is that I hate light. I do my best and greatest work in the dark. And so when families and police and professionals and teachers, they shine their light on me, they start to talk openly about me and they raise awareness, you know, things like prevention programs in schools. This is where the light starts to shine on me. And when there’s light to me, I become really disinterested. Often I’ll go away for days or weeks, months, maybe even years, but I’ll always return unless that light is continually shone.

Sophie Guy [00:09:05] And how has community awareness changed the way that you work?

Secrecy [00:09:09] Yeah, I’m really glad you asked that question, because one of my proudest achievements, I think, is that I’ve become so much cleverer and more sophisticated since the 1980s. And, you know, many of the perpetrators I work with have become expert in more nuanced and complex manipulation of children. And, you know, so despite the very good work the community awareness has done, I still have many tricks up my sleeve which make it really difficult for children and still for communities.

Sophie Guy [00:09:40] Secrecy, I’m wondering if you can tell me more about these inconsistencies.

Secrecy [00:09:44] Yes, Sophie, so many parents and really through no sense of ill will and very good natured parents, they still help me. They really help me, because despite their best intentions, they might make a small comment, something really small. But it still suggests to their child that the child’s done something wrong, that the perpetrator is not fully responsible for the abuse. It may be something that the child did, something that the child wore, something that the child said which makes the child forever carry around this sense of guilt. So this, again, is where I collaborate a lot with my mate, Self-blame and Shame. We can really go to work in the mind of a child, gathering all kinds of evidence which convinced them that what happened was their fault. And, you know, we get so much help from institutions. Look at the media, for example, how many times do they portray children as self-entitled, children that need tougher discipline rather than these soft ideas about shared decision-making and emotional support.

Sophie Guy [00:10:48] So you’re suggesting that the way we view children as a society influences whether they will recover from the effects of child sexual abuse?

Secrecy [00:10:57] Yeah, absolutely, Sophie. Have you ever heard that saying children should be seen and not heard? You know, that to me has just been the most wonderful ally in my work in preventing children from disclosing abuse. Or from adults really understanding what is happening in children’s life. So when a child is abused, they’ve already experienced the ultimate misuse of power by an adult. They’re already so far up against that within society. And when society is influenced by outdated ideas that makes children necessarily obedient and silent, then I really have no choice but to thrive. But when parents and practitioners are committed to ways which help children find their voice, this is where my job becomes just that little bit more difficult.

Sophie Guy [00:11:46] Secrecy, you’ve talked a lot about your success and challenges today. How do you know if you’re being successful?

Secrecy [00:11:52] Well, I look at the data, Sophie, and, you know, quite frankly, despite the challenges I’ve had in recent decades, the scoreboard often still looks fairly good for me. You only need to look at the data from youth homeless shelters or youth detention centres, and this tells me that at least over half of these young people have been sexually abused. So the fact that I’ve been able to disconnect these children so well from their parents, from family, from schools and from society in general, really does speak volumes for my success. And I also, you know, would again like to mention my mate Shame and Self-blame in this, who also really go to work convincing children who are doing it tough that they really are beyond redemption.

Sophie Guy [00:12:39] Can you tell me how Shame and Self-blame do that?

Secrecy [00:12:43] Yeah, I can, Sophie. So if you look at any child who experiences abuse, they’re also at that time, probably experiencing other challenges in their lives. They might also be having trouble at school or they might be socially isolated. They might be in care. So whatever challenges these are, the perpetrator uses these vulnerabilities to be able to manipulate the child. When a child is having multiple troubles in their lives, this can begin to be seen by them as proof that they really aren’t much good. And this is where Shame and Self-blame are at their most powerful. And also, don’t forget me – when this happens, I go to work convincing children that if they disclose the abuse, they really won’t be believed because, you know, they’re bad kids. They’re having so many other troubles. Who would believe them? So that’s where I whisper things into their ear, like if you tell, your mum will be hurt, or your dad will stop loving you. So by adding more evidence to a child, I can really help them to never disclose what’s happening to them.

Sophie Guy [00:13:45] Secrecy, most of our listeners today will be professionals that provide frontline support to children in their families. I’m wondering what messages from today’s conversation would you particularly like them to take away.

Secrecy [00:13:57] When a practitioner suspects that a child might be experiencing the effects of child sexual abuse or where that child sexual abuse hasn’t been disclosed yet, that can be so challenging for practitioners. They often cannot know how many questions to be asking that child, so that that child may have the opportunity to disclose what’s happened to them. My main and clear message to practitioners is to give into that challenge at every time. It can be really awkward for the practitioner at these particular times and my question to them is, why open another can of worms? If they’re generalist practitioners, I want to confirm that they should not be working in the area of sexual abuse and this is specialist work. So even if a child does disclose to them, I wanted them to know that they should never give the child the support that they need. It’s really important to me that this child continues to fall through the gaps. Also, practitioners can keep it playing it safe by concentrating only on doing assessments with children. Under no circumstances should they provide collaborative practise, which allows the child trust within the relationship and allows the child to have a voice in the process. Finally, I also want to communicate how problematic it is when a practitioner encourages a child to explore the power differentials between a child and an adult, and helps a child to make sense of the fact that the abuse was never their responsibility.

Sophie Guy [00:15:32] You certainly know what it is you want people to hear. It sounds like you might have tried to influence practitioners before, is this correct?

Secrecy [00:15:41] Yeah, I’ve had a long battle with practitioners, Sophie, but the important thing for you to understand and to realise is that even the most skilled and experienced practitioner occasionally doubts their own ability to make a difference in the lives of children. So I try really hard to chip away at this confidence. My friend Self-doubt is an excellent ally in this work. But, you know, we’re not always successful. But, you know, the thing I’m starting to realise and the thing that deeply troubles me is that there are so many practitioners out there. And again, this is something that’s happened since the 1980s that have become dedicated, become unwavering in their commitment to working with children in ways that makes it so much more possible for them to tell the stories of their lives.

Sophie Guy [00:16:27] Do these practitioners operate alone, Secrecy, or are they supported by organisations which are also committed to helping combat you?

Secrecy [00:16:36] Well, yes, Sophie, I guess that an organisational commitment to helping children tell their stories is, you know, to be frank, really damaging to my campaign. And let’s face it, there are many exceptional organisations out there who really do what it takes to support their practitioners, to become very skilled and confident in working in the area of child sexual abuse. And what really worries me is when practitioners do develop their skills, they start to find these innovative ways of practising, which makes life so much harder for me. For example, Sophie, dedicated child sexual abuse services were developed in Australia when relationship counsellors, family relationship counsellors at the time, began noticing the damaging effects of sexual abuse on multiple generations of families. So these skills have now spread far and wide. And so, so many more practitioners are really competent in engaging children around sexual abuse and working with the families of these children and in engaging in processes which make children feel safe enough to eventually disclose what has happened. So when this all happened, Sophie, I can really start to feel my grip on power loosening.

Sophie Guy [00:17:49] So you lose all your power at the point of disclosure?

Secrecy [00:17:52] Sophie, now you’re just getting ahead of yourself. You must remember that not all disclosures are responded to effectively. Many children try to tell an adult in their lives, but are not met with encouraging responses. When this happens, they might not disclose for many more years by which time, the effects of their mental health become much more entrenched. These adults are usually well-meaning, but become more consumed by their own worry, finding it hard to be present, to listen carefully to the child, to support them in a nurturing and non-judgemental ways. There are still so many invitations out there for practitioners to lose confidence in asking children to tell the stories of their lives. And I’m going to continue to work both on children and practitioners alike to make sure that my grip on power doesn’t completely dissolve.

Sophie Guy [00:18:46] What’s it like for you when practitioners and organisations have a commitment to helping children tell their stories?

Secrecy [00:18:53] Yes, so it’s worrying. You know, it’s really, really worrying, it keeps me up at night sometimes. And I can’t lie, there as I’ve said, many practitioners out there and now organisations who have done really clever work in identifying how me and my friends Self-blame and Shame operate. It just felt like I used to be able to roam around doing whatever I wanted in complete darkness. But now there are so many practitioners and organisations who seem like they’re holding a light to my tricks. These organisations, you know, they’re connecting with advocacy groups and people with lived experience to better understand the obstacles that children face in disclosing their abuse. You know, and there are so many practitioners who have really stuck with the issue, really persevered in getting better at what they do, in getting better at helping children overcome my influence on them. It really does make me feel quite nervous contemplating just what might be possible in the next decade or the next couple of decades. It really, I suppose, to be frank, is quite a worrying time.

Sophie Guy [00:19:58] Well, thank you very much for your time today, Secrecy, and for granting us a rare interview. Our discussion has been very illuminating. We have learnt how you are most powerful when society, families and professionals allow you to work behind a cloak of darkness, keeping child sexual abuse a taboo topic and holding onto outdated ideas of children and parenting. We also learnt that by shining a light on your tricks, we can weaken your power. We can do this by continuing to provide children with a voice, by building genuine partnerships with children and overcoming our hesitancy to ask about sexual abuse. We can also do this by continuing to educate the community about the prevalence of sexual abuse and the tactics of those who abuse. Secrecy, it seems that despite your best efforts, there are many ways that light is being shone on your tricks, and for that reason, this conversation has made me feel, above all else, hopeful for the future of children.

Narrator [00:21:01] Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au to access a range of resources to assist your practice. Brought to you by the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health, led by Emerging Minds. The National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.