Transcript for
Supporting children and young people who identify as gender diverse

Narrator (00:02):

Welcome to the Emerging Minds Families podcast.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (00:05):

Hi, I’m Alicia Ranford and you’re listening to an Emerging Minds Families podcast. In today’s world, conversations surrounding gender have really evolved, challenging traditional notions and opening up new possibilities for self-expression. Parents can, however, sometimes find it overwhelming to know how to support their young people in navigating the seemingly complex landscape of gender identity. In today’s episode, we’re talking to Ellen Murray. Ellen is a mental health nurse who supports young people and their families to embrace their children’s authentic selves. She’s going to talk to us about how to foster healthy parent–child relationships, promote self-acceptance, and how to really create a sense of belonging within families who are navigating this space with their young people. Welcome, Ellen. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Ellen Murray (Guest) (00:51):

Thank you so much for having me.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (00:52):

It’s great to have you here. Ellen, I would really love to start by asking you to explain for any of our listeners who are perhaps a little bit unsure what are we talking about when we refer to both gender and sexuality and why is it important parents understand the difference?

Ellen Murray (Guest) (01:06):

This is a great question and it is something that is often mixed up and used interchangeably. I think the important thing to know that sexuality is about who we are attracted to, both romantically or physically, sexually, and gender is about who we are and how we identify as a person. So they are two very different things, and certainly both fall within the LGBTQIA+ community, and I think that’s perhaps where sometimes that confusion comes into play.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (01:31):

So it’s really about how we feel in ourselves and what we identify as and then who we’re attracted to.

Ellen Murray (Guest) (01:38):

Exactly. That’s it.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (01:38):

And could you also explain transgender for our listeners?

Ellen Murray (Guest) (01:42):

Sure. So transgender is the term used to describe people who identify with a gender that’s different to the one that they were assumed at birth. For example, I was assumed female at birth and I identify as a female, so I would be considered cisgender. So someone who is transgender may have been assumed female at birth, but now have a male gender identity and want to live their life as a male or seen as a male by the people in their lives.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (02:07):

And how do pronouns play into this conversation?

Ellen Murray (Guest) (02:10):

Pronouns are not exclusive to trans or gender-diverse people. Everyone has pronouns, and I guess that’s just the way we refer to ourselves or refer to other people. So my gender identity is female. I am happy with she/her pronouns. Someone who’s transgender may have lived a life where different pronouns were always used and part of their transition has included changing their pronouns which are more fitting with their gender identity.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (02:34):

And why is it important for us as individuals to respect and understand someone else’s pronoun?

Ellen Murray (Guest) (02:40):

I think it says a lot about the level of understanding that we have and the level of acceptance we also have for the people that are in our lives. For young people who I work with, when they are constantly misgendered, it’s that constant reminder that they aren’t seen for who they are and that can have incredibly negative impacts on their mental health and wellbeing because it’s a sense of not being believed or not being respected, more importantly. And so I think language in particular in this space, it’s so important for it to be inclusive and to represent what that person is wanting for people to see for them.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (03:14):

And I think as a parent, it can also help show that you’re an ally.

Ellen Murray (Guest) (03:17):

Yes, absolutely, and one of the things that I work mostly with parents around is how to support their young people and using the correct name if they’ve changed their name, and using the correct pronouns are incredibly important in being affirming and for it to be a genuine affirmation and not something that’s seen as tick-box activity, that it is something that the parent can actually see that this is who this person is now and this is how I have to show my respect and support for them.

(03:43):

So I have this great story of a young person who I met who’s nonbinary and who uses they/them pronouns, and they came to our service and they talked about the difficulties that their parents were having with really getting on board with the pronouns. They really, really struggled with it, but then did say that over time they did get better, but that was mostly because of their older sibling who took it upon themselves to use an air horn anytime the parents slipped up as that reminder that that’s not the correct pronouns. Fortunately, this family can laugh about that now and look back at it as something that’s really quite funny, but it was something that really helped the parents correct themselves when they were getting it wrong, but they both said that they feel that they got on board quicker because of that.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (04:24):

I love that. That’s a really creative family environment to live in, isn’t it? What advice would you have for parents and other family and friends who might not know a young person’s pronouns?

Ellen Murray (Guest) (04:33):

You can just ask. It’s really that simple. If you are meeting someone for the first time and you are unsure of what pronouns they’re using, you can just simply ask. I think we should be doing that in general, in most situations that we find ourselves in. When we introduce ourselves by name, we can just simply say, “My pronouns are she/her,” and when we can do that, it really shows to the young people particularly that you are someone that understands it, that gets it, and is likely to be respectful and supportive. So using pronouns and asking people what their pronouns are is a really good sign of allyship and how you can be supportive for that young person.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (05:09):

And I feel like it will also show that you’re a safe person if they wanted to talk about anything.

Ellen Murray (Guest) (05:13):

100%, and that is something that a lot of the young people I work with talk about is constantly trying to feel for who is safe for them. We live in a world that certainly has progressed in the ways of supporting gender-diverse people. However, there is still a lot of unsafe situations we can find ourselves in, a lot of uncertainty around who is going to be supportive and who isn’t. When we use inclusive language such as pronouns, that really shows that we have a really deeper understanding of diversity in general. So definitely showing ourselves up to be allies in that space.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (05:45):

And quite a simple thing to do.

Ellen Murray (Guest) (05:47):

So easy to do. For people who I guess aren’t used to thinking about their pronouns, so for people who are cisgender, who aren’t trans and who perhaps don’t have a lot of trans or gender-diverse people in their lives, it does feel a bit clunky at times because we’ve kind of grown up in a world where that’s the norm, and so explaining what our pronouns are has never really been a thing that we’ve had to do in the past, but it certainly is easy. It just takes practise.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (06:12):

I know from my own experience when I had my first nonbinary friend, it was just a matter of practising saying they/them instead of she/her.

Ellen Murray (Guest) (06:20):

Yeah, and that’s I think a really tricky one for most people to get their heads around is gender-neutral pronouns. They/them is a very common set of pronouns for people who are nonbinary or gender diverse or who don’t stick to a binary version of gender, whether that be male or female. So using something like they/them is a really nice way for those people to be affirmed and not seen as the gender that they were assumed at birth, but it does take a bit of practise. I think historically we see they and them being used in group settings, so to get our minds around it being used as a singular can be a bit tricky, but it can be done and it can be incredibly affirming to do it.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (06:56):

Ellen, in your experience, what is it that children and young people fear most about openly being themselves?

Ellen Murray (Guest) (07:02):

Rejection and that real fear of losing perhaps a very safe circle in their lives, and depending on the age as well, that can be a really scary thing. Certainly lots of young people who I work with genuinely face the idea of homelessness because if they want to live their life the way they want to authentically it means that they can’t do it in the home that they’re living in.

(07:25):

So speaking to the safety we discussed earlier, certainly people who are gender diverse are constantly checking who is safe, who they can be around, because that real fear of rejection and isolation is there, and we see it in the mental health outcomes for gender-diverse people. They are far worse than the cisgender counterparts, and for good reason because it does draw on the fact that they’re often ostracised or discriminated against, bullied, made homeless, all of these awful things that a lot of cisgender people don’t really ever have to be worried about. So coming out and being authentically themselves, gender-diverse people really are at risk of completely flipping their life upside down if they’re not going to have the support that they really need.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (08:07):

And we talk a lot here on the Emerging Minds Families podcast about the importance of your village and your community, and I can really imagine how the fear of losing that community would be really devastating.

Ellen Murray (Guest) (08:18):

Absolutely, and not knowing then where to find that community, that can be incredibly isolating for sure. So lots of trans and gender-diverse young people or people part of the LGBTQI+ community certainly have their chosen family in those respects, and they tend to be people who aren’t blood relations, but people that they know that they can rely on and feel safe and supported by.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (08:37):

For the LGBTQIA+ community, what do you think are the biggest impacts on their mental health and wellbeing?

Ellen Murray (Guest) (08:43):

I think the biggest impact on mental health is, again, that fear of rejection or that fear of being excluded. I think historically we’ve lived in a world where difference isn’t always celebrated, and to be different and to be outwardly different can be incredibly empowering for some but it can be incredibly dangerous for others. I think just being concerned about how you’re going to be treated by peers, by school colleagues, by teachers, by adults in your life, you’re constantly trying to figure out who is going to treat you well, and when you’re constantly feeling that way, constantly checking on your safety, it will absolutely have an impact on your mental health and your ability just to be freely yourself every day.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (09:22):

What can the important people in a child or young person’s life do to actively support them in being their authentic selves?

Ellen Murray (Guest) (09:29):

So being really open to communication and to talking, and I guess from as young an age as possible, remind that child that it doesn’t matter if they’re not straight or cisgender that the home that they live in is going to be a supportive one. So just constantly reminding children that they are free to be themselves, advocating in spaces for support, so schools, community settings, sporting teams, things like that, and being that strong advocate because I think for anyone in the LGBTQI+ community, there’s certainly gender-diverse people. You get tired advocating for yourself and for sticking up for yourself so it’s really nice to have adults in our lives who can do that for us sometimes when it gets a little bit harder.

(10:11):

I think it’s really important to not avoid having hard conversations or conversations that perhaps feel uncomfortable. A lot can be learned in these conversations and in these spaces, and I think for young people, it’s that reminder that these people are safe and that they want to hear their story and want to support them as best as possible because to assume that we know exactly what that young person needs or wants can lead to some negative outcomes.

(10:35):

For example, if your child has come out to you and said, “Hey, I’m trans, but I’m still sort of trying to figure it out so I’m not ready to really talk about it with other people,” and you decide, “Well, I’m going to be a great advocate and go tell like the aunties and the uncles and the cousins and the family,” out of what seems to be a goodwill gesture ends up being quite damaging to that young person because they’ve lost that agency in being able to tell that story themselves. So being led by the young person and what they’re wanting is incredibly important, and not ever assuming and checking in for consent and who it is that they can talk to about that and what else that young person wants the parents to know and to do and to learn.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (11:12):

Ellen, what would your advice be for parents or carers who feel the young person in their life is perhaps questioning their gender or sexuality, but they haven’t known how to speak with them about it?

Ellen Murray (Guest) (11:22):

So this actually recently came up with a young person who I met, and they said that from a very young age, their parents had always been quite openly supportive of the queer community. The family would watch things like the Mardi Gras together and parents would openly talk about the importance of diversity and inclusion. So that young person sort of grew up knowing that this was a safe space to be able to talk about it. So I think for parents, if they have a feeling that their child is sort of going through something in relation to their gender or sexuality, which parents will often pick up on, it’s important to be mindful of what sort of conversations you’re having in and around the household and being mindful of ways to sort of include diversity in the household, whether that be talking about other friends who are gay or gender-diverse people that they know in their life, and I guess just planting little seeds that that young person knows that this is a safe space to be able to talk about who they are.

(12:18):

Certainly having a gentle conversation about it won’t hurt. I think some people perhaps think that if they sort of plant a seed that it might evolve into something that they weren’t expecting, and I think for anyone who’s gender diverse or queer or questioning their sexuality, regardless or not if their parents talk to them about it directly, it’s always going to be there. So if they feel that that’s the case and they feel that they have a good enough relationship with their child, just gently bring it up, and that can be around a general conversation around mental health or around relationships and how they feel about themselves in terms of self-esteem and that sort of thing. So there’s lots of different ways that we can sort of bring in that conversation if we don’t want to directly come out and say it, but I think avoiding it can potentially lead to that child feeling like that is something that they can’t really talk about at some point.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (13:05):

When we spoke in the lead up to recording this podcast, you mentioned to me that some parents go through a sort of grieving process. Could you tell us a bit more about that?

Ellen Murray (Guest) (13:14):

Parents speak about thinking in the future of what their child’s life was going to be like, and all of a sudden that being flipped on its head, and I guess the world we live in, which can be incredibly unsafe for gender-diverse, trans people, parents can be really concerned then about what that future is going to hold, and there certainly is this grieving process of losing the child they thought that they were going to be raising. We normalise that in the spaces when we meet with these families, and we encourage parents and caregivers to go and get some support around that. Most children understand and accept that that is something that their parents are going to go through, but it’s incredibly important that parents access support themselves away from their child when navigating that because the last thing they want to do is leave their child with feelings of guilt or shame for not being who their parents thought they were going to be. It’s important to accept that it is part of the process, but certainly it’s the parent’s responsibility to go out and get their own support to manage it.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (14:06):

And would you say it’s also a really lovely opportunity for parents and their children or young people to grow together and learn about the person their child is becoming?

Ellen Murray (Guest) (14:15):

Absolutely. I think if a parent can really get on board, they can be really part of the process, and we’ve certainly seen that with parents helping their kids pick a new name. I think a lot of parents grieve that sort of process of that name being lost, the name that was given at birth, so being part of picking a new name together can be a really important way of solidifying that allyship and showing that support and having an active role in that social transition or social affirmation as we also call it. I think it can bring parents and children closer because you’re having conversations that parents and cisgender children probably would be very unlikely to have. So I think it’s a really wonderful opportunity to really embrace that relationship and further show that support.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (14:57):

For any children or young people who might be listening today, what advice would you have for them to help support their parents and family through this time?

Ellen Murray (Guest) (15:06):

I think it’s important to acknowledge that it’s going to be a bit of a journey, most importantly, and I think a lot of the young people I meet with certainly hold that sort of grace period for the parents or grandparents or whoever it is that’s in their lives and accept that it’s going to take a slight bit of adjustment. I think it’s important to be able to talk to parents and say, “Hey, I need you to go and get some help around something specific in terms of their own needs.” And so being directed by the young people in our lives can be incredibly respectful, but also empowering in making sure that we’re going and getting the education that we need elsewhere and not putting it on the young person to make it their job to educate us on absolutely everything.

(15:45):

There’s so many resources out there that parents can access. For example, Transcend is an Australian-wide organisation, it’s peer run for parents and caregivers of gender-diverse young people, wonderful website with lots of really great resources and about how to support the young people who are gender diverse in our lives. There’s also the Parents of Gender-Diverse Children which is another group that exists, and certainly we direct pretty much all of our parents that come through our service to go and get some support via these channels because we can see how tiring it can be for a young person to have to explain themselves over and over and over again, so really important for parents to access education on their own.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (16:23):

I really like to think we’ve come a long way. Are there still common misconceptions about the LGBTQIA+ community?

Ellen Murray (Guest) (16:30):

I think are. I think there’s certainly still conservative pockets of the world that we live in. I think this idea of being gender diverse or being trans, at the moment, I’m hearing a lot of, oh, it’s a trend or it’s something that kids are just getting on board with because other people are doing it, and that’s totally not the case. Certainly adolescence is a time for anyone to explore who they are. That is a normal part of growing up and who we are, but anyone who’s gender diverse and trans, they’re not doing it because it’s a trend.

(16:57):

They’re going through it because it’s who they are, and I think it’s actually a really nice thing that we can live in a world where kids can explore that, and whether or not they are gender diverse or not but they’ve sort of explored and experimented, that’s really wonderful, but it’s certainly not a trend. It’s certainly not contagious. You’re not going to catch being trans or gender diverse by being friends with a trans or gender-diverse person or someone who is gay or a lesbian or bisexual. I think it’s just that reminder that we live in a world where human diversity exists and we should embrace it and not be afraid of it.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (17:30):

Ellen, before we finish, I wanted to ask what would you hope listeners take away from our conversation today?

Ellen Murray (Guest) (17:35):

As someone who works with a lot of gender-diverse young people, the biggest thing I would love for people to take away is how important support is and genuine shows of support. So whether that be attending rallies that promote diversity in our world, thinking about the marriage equality rallies that existed back in 2017, whether it’s having a lanyard that has your pronoun on it, there’s so many ways that we can show up and show us support for gender diverse and transgender young people.

(18:08):

I really hope that the people who are listening know that there are many ways that they can go out and learn more themselves, ask the questions that they need to ask, and seek that support to be effective allies for these young people because transgender diverse people are not going to go away. They’re going to continue to live in the world that we live in, and I think it’s incredibly important we create a world that allows them to live. Certainly the work that I do with young people I’m doing in the hope that these young people can go on and live a life as an adult as they deserve to live.

Alicia Ranford (Host) (18:38):

Thank you so much for your time today, Ellen. I really appreciate the practical advice you’ve provided for our listeners who perhaps up until now were unsure how to support the children and young people in their lives and help them be comfortable to be themselves.

Ellen Murray (Guest) (18:51):

Thank you for having me. I’ve loved the opportunity to be able to talk about it.

Narrator (18:57):

Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au/families for a wide range of free information and resources to help support child and family mental health. Emerging Minds leads the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health. The centre is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.