Transcript for
Supporting children when working with separating parents – part one
Vanya (00:00): Without looking after the parents’ wellbeing, you can’t drink from an empty cup, so you have to look after the parent first, make sure they’re in a good space, because if they’re not, they may not be willing or able to then look after their children in an appropriate way. If their needs haven’t been met first, they’re not necessarily going to listen to advice or it’ll be all just too hard.
Narrator (00:27): Welcome to the Emerging Minds podcast.
Chris Dolman (00:32): Hi everyone. My name is Chris Dolman, and I work with Emerging Minds. Each year, many Australian children experience the separation or divorce of their parents or primary caregivers. Of course, many of these parents navigate separations in ways that take care of children’s mental health and wellbeing and without assistance from family dispute resolution services or specialist counselling services. However, separating families do come into contact with a range of practitioners during separation, such as GPs, educators and school counsellors, allied health providers and generalist counsellors.
(01:05): It’s important that all practitioners have the understanding and skills to support parents and children during this time. Emerging Minds recently consulted with a number of practitioners to understand how they go about supporting children’s mental health when working with parents who are going through separation or divorce. We also spoke with parents who have navigated relationship separation and who sought support from professionals about what they felt was important in terms of how practitioners can support parents and children through this period.
(01:31): In this first episode of a three-part series, we’ll be discussing the importance of supporting parents’ own wellbeing during relationship separation and some ways to go about doing this. Not only is this important in itself, of course, but it also in turn supports the wellbeing of children. In episode two, we’ll be exploring ideas and practises for supporting parents’ parenting during separation. And in episode three, we’ll be discussing ways to support parents to support their children during separation. But for now, let’s begin by hearing from our guests, and I’ll introduce them as we go. I began by asking practitioners, how important is the understanding that negative mental health outcomes for children are not a natural or inevitable consequence of parental separation in shaping their work with parents? Here’s Roxanne Nathan, a post-separation practitioner with Relationships Australia, South Australia, and her colleague, Alesha Akintoye, who works as a family law counsellor.
Roxanne Nathan (02:26): I think it’s so important for parents to know that the mental health outcomes of their children are actually based on the decisions that they make and the help and support that they get, and that it’s not … I always bring up the Jen McIntosh quote of, “It’s not parental separation that hurts children. It’s the ongoing conflict that hurts children.” And it’s something that I normally let parents know off the bat, and I’ll typically give them a couple of really well-known resources, particularly the booklet because it’s for the children, which is just a PDF that you can print off of Google, and that gives them an outline and hopefully restructures their idea of what they can control in regards to their children’s mental health around separation and the decisions that they can make as parents that are going to be small opportunities for their children to have really good mental health outcomes.
Alesha Akintoye (03:17): I think that really acknowledging the way that society’s stories separation, because there is often from friends and from family, parents are hearing all about the children and that there will be a negative impact on children. And parents often come in with a big worry around that. How are they going cope? What are they going to think? What’s going to change for them? Really I start off with an acknowledgement of what they’re experiencing and really letting them know it’s completely normal to feel unsure, but even the fact that you’ve come in and you’ve asked for help, you’re seeking support, you want to know more, that in itself shows that your children are in great hands and that it doesn’t have to have a negative output on them. Their mental health doesn’t have to be affected by a separation. And if yourself and your ex-partner are on the same sort of mindset of supporting the children, then there can be a positive outcome for them.
Chris Dolman (04:12): I asked Roxanne and Alicia what they think it’s like for parents to hear these messages.
Roxanne Nathan (04:16): When parents come into community services, they’re normally in quite a stressed place or a very negative mindset, or they’re really hurt. To hear that gives them hope that those feelings might subside and that their children might be given a better outcome than what it feels like in that moment.
Alesha Akintoye (04:36): I think there is a sort of a big sigh that happens in a relaxation, but it also helps them to shift into thinking, “Well, what can I do now? What sort of world can I build for my children now?” And it helps them to shift into a more reflective state, instead of that responsive of, “Everything has changed around me, everything’s changed for my children.” There’s a small shift there, often.
Chris Dolman (05:02): Helen McMullan is a service manager with Uniting Communities, and she spoke about the importance of taking this perspective in the work of her team.
Helen McMullan (05:10): So we would like to believe that the majority of parents can separate and work through two houses amicably, and the understanding that children’s best interests are something that they’re aware of and how to focus on making children comfortable in going across from two houses and being able to love both parents and that they have the love and the nurturing that they need. That’s always the goal and what we would always be talking to our parents about.
Chris Dolman (05:46): I asked Helen what it is that helps her team hold onto this belief in their work.
Helen McMullan (05:51): For me and our team, it’s really to want the best for the children. In all of our conversations, whether it would be from the first time we speak to parents to parenting courses, to information sessions, to intakes, to mediations, any touchpoint, we are always reinforcing the best interest of children, to be future focused, to really look at what their children’s needs are now, and their children’s needs haven’t actually changed. They need the same thing whether they’re in a nuclear family or if they’re in separated homes.
Chris Dolman (06:31): I spoke with Emerging Minds Family Partners, Jocelyn, Vanya, and Allan, parents who have navigated relationship separation, about the extent to which they understood that they could influence how their children were going to experience the separation. Here’s Vanya.
Vanya (06:44): I know from the way when my parents divorced, it was awful. Absolutely awful. Yelling, screaming, fighting. I was scared all the time, things like that. From that experience, I took it to myself and I said, “I will not do that to my children.” I made sure that, as I said, I was calm, I approached it, I was open. They knew they could be safe and talk to me. I knew I didn’t want what I’d experienced to affect them in a negative way. Yes, there is that negative side to it. Fortunately, it’s not always the case. And I think just through gaining that understanding that it doesn’t have to be a bad thing. It can be the best thing to happen for both parents, both people, the children.
Chris Dolman (07:25): And here’s Jocelyn.
Jocelyn (07:26): I think that we’ve come a really long way as a society, but we still have very deeply held expectations and norms around what is good for children and what isn’t good for children. And I think there’s a very strongly held norm that the best thing for kids is to be living in one household, to grow up in one household with both their parents. And that’s very interesting to have because we hold that ourselves as people. And when you’re going through an experience of separation, there’s definitely, like for me, there was a worry around what does this mean in terms of my children and their life? It’s going to look completely different to what I thought it was going to be.
Chris Dolman (08:07): I asked Jocelyn about whether these worries were helpful or not helpful for her.
Jocelyn (08:13): I think it’s helpful. I mean, obviously worries can go either way, and when they become a strong sense of anxiety, then that’s not necessarily helpful. But I think it’s a really good thing to be bearing that in mind because separation isn’t just about the two people or one or both parties have decided they don’t want to be in a relationship anymore. These are almost invariably long-term partnerships, long-term emotional, social, financial and parenting partnerships. That doesn’t just impact on the individuals that are separating. It impacts on all the people that are in the family, and especially the children in the family. It’s good to have those worries and it’s good to be thinking about ways to address them.
Chris Dolman (08:57): I asked Allan, when he was at the beginning of separation, did he have a view that this was going to be inherently bad for kids and there was nothing he could do about it? Or did he have a sense that as tough as this time was going to be, that he could still make a difference to how his children got through it?
Alan (09:11): I think in the beginning it was quite a shock because it didn’t originate from myself. But when the discussion was had and the decision was made, my mindset was to keep the children in their normal routines. If they were doing sport, we’d try and keep them going to the regular sporting activities until there was a reasonable time to announce it to them. We tried to carry on as normal as possible until that time. I had that sense, so I didn’t want them to be affected.
Chris Dolman (09:53): I asked our guests about what role practitioners working outside of specialist family dispute resolution or counselling services can play in supporting children’s wellbeing. Emerging Minds Family Partner, Jocelyn, was adamant.
Jocelyn (10:05): I think it’s really likely that a parent is going to speak to a non-specialist practitioner, whether it’s their GP or someone else potentially as their first port of call when they’re starting or going through a separation process. It’s really important for non-specialist practitioners to have an awareness of parental separation and all of the various dynamics and complexities that come along with it.
Chris Dolman (10:32): One of the most effective ways to support children’s wellbeing through parental separation is to support their parents. I asked our guests, how important is it to first focus on parents’ wellbeing before engaging in conversations about parenting and their children. Here’s Jocelyn again, and then Vanya.
Jocelyn (10:48): Yeah, I think that it’s really key for practitioners to be looking at how parents are travelling through this and the parents’ own wellbeing. I think, as I mentioned, it’s a really huge life decision to make to separate, and so it is not just about two individuals deciding to separate. There’s a whole lot of decisions and considerations that go into it, and it’s extremely stressful, extremely stressful event. Not only are parents contending with norms around what families look like, there’s so many societal norms around the role of women and the role of mothers. We really do expect mothers to be with their children. There’s also a lot to be said around what we consider to be success and what we consider to be failure in life. Certainly a relationship being together is considered a success. A relationship separating is considered a failure. There’s all those sorts of things going on for a parent as well as their immediate circumstances.
(11:57): This might be the first time that they’ve really been able to talk freely with someone when they see a practitioner about it. I think it’s really important for practitioners to bear in mind that it has taken an extraordinary amount of courage for the parent to come and speak to them about what is the very personal and often quite fraught experience, a complex experience. Yes, thinking about the parents’ wellbeing and how they’re travelling is a really important foundation to set before other good work can be done, before the practitioner is really able to support the parent to navigate that tricky time. And before the parent can be really a sound and good parent.
Vanya (12:40): Without looking after the parents’ wellbeing, you can’t drink from an empty cup. You have to look after the parent first, make sure they’re in a good space, because if they’re not, they may not be willing or able to then look after their children in an appropriate way if their needs haven’t been met first. They’re not necessarily going to listen to advice or it will be all just too hard.
Chris Dolman (13:05): Emerging Minds Family Partner, Jamie, spoke about how the practitioners he met with did take time to understand his experience before focusing on his children’s wellbeing.
Jamie Smith (13:14): Yeah, every service that I was linked in with during the separation, always how I felt, how everything’s going in the house as a whole, not just how everything’s going as being a new parent, so my life, how I was working, what I was doing, study, all those kinds of things. All the practitioners I’ve seen have always kind of gotten on board with what the parents, the situation is with both parents before they start even asking anything about the kid, even the age and that kind of thing. Yeah, I’ve had the good experience when it comes through that.
Chris Dolman (13:45): Post-separation practitioner, Roxanne Nathan, also believes this is vital.
Roxanne Nathan (13:50): Well, kids need their parents to be healthy, well, strong adults. Children are not going to be able to do well in separation if their parents are not doing well. Particularly my role as I see it as a practitioner is to support parents first. And I give them the metaphor of put the oxygen mask on yourself first, then you put it on your child because your child needs you to be well enough to give them the help and support that they need. It is really critical to engage parental support first and then move to the children when that is established.
Chris Dolman (14:21): She continues on to describe how she goes about doing this in her work.
Roxanne Nathan (14:24): Normally the first thing that I like to do when I meet a parent is let them tell their narrative. Just let them get it out. Then you as a practitioner have got to pick up the puzzle pieces that you think are worth trying to get a bit more out of. If you hear something about safety, jotting that down, and going back to that, if you hear something about how they’re not managing in that stage where they are, jotting that down and going back to that, but letting that particular parent just flow their story to you, try not to interrupt. Put that active listening hat on as a professional. A really typical one can often be that they’re not able to perhaps work to their full potential at the moment, that they’re not managing the daily tasks of making sure the house is upkept, for example. And really recognising and letting them know that they’re really normal things that happen when our brains and our body are in stress and worry that we will let some of those things go.
(15:19):
And I often will say, “If the dishes aren’t done, who’s going to die?” And hopefully that gives them a bit of a laugh that you’re right. Actually, that’s a really simple thing, that it doesn’t matter if the dishes aren’t done or I might let them know that it is okay if their children have a little bit more screen time or spend a little bit more time with a grandparent in this time than they normally would because you might need that little bit of extra time to do something for yourself that will fill your bucket and then you can help your child through that process.
Chris Dolman (15:50): I asked Roxanne how she intentionally checks in about a parent’s wellbeing or how she checks in about changes to a parent’s wellbeing.
Roxanne Nathan (15:57): Really simple questions about how are you …. When you wake up in the morning, what’s the first thought that comes to mind? It might be a thought about the stress of the separation. It might be a thought of failure that they’re not able to get the things done that day that they’d hoped. I also might ask them when the last time they felt joy was or they felt like they were doing well, and they might say, “That was a couple of months ago” or, “Actually, no, that was yesterday.” It depends on how they’re travelling at that point in time. I’d also ask them how others, how their circle of influence is noticing them. It might be their parents or it might be their best friend, sister, brother, someone that they’re close to that they might say, “Actually, they did say to me the other day that I’m looking really stressed or I’m not looking like my normal self,” or something along those lines. And that’s a really good indicator that other people are noticing that you’re not doing well.
Chris Dolman (16:48): Clare Daly, a child counsellor and parent educator with Centacare Catholic Family Services, also emphasises the importance of attending to parents’ wellbeing as an effective way to also support children.
Clare Daly (17:00): Part of separation comes with a lot of parental grief around that and loss. Lots of parents feel they are often to blame. If they can see beyond that, if they can see that that’s just a little part of the puzzle of life if you like, then it does allow them to take off that lens of guilt and to be able to focus on their children’s needs. They have to look after themselves, but to also be able to look after their children. It’s about what nourishes and feeds the parent and gets them in a place where they can understand just how important their role is. What’s happening? What have you noticed that’s changed in your life? This is you then and now.
(17:43): If we look at what did you used to do? What don’t you do? What can you reclaim? Talk around reclaiming a little bit. Often in relationships, people lose who they were, so to see the past and then the present and where they see themselves. Doing a lot of that, playing with language, I guess, and giving them options, putting it out there saying, “Look, what are some things that you used to do that you love that you don’t do anymore? And what stopped that or what slowed that down?” They can see that they can get back there. They can get back with different things.
Chris Dolman (18:21): Here’s family law counsellor, Alesha Akintoye.
Alesha Akintoye (18:24): I’m just thinking of parents. And when they come in from a separation, the amount of grief that they’re actually carrying from the loss of a relationship and the changes that they’ve experienced, sometimes they are really focused on, “What do I do for the children?” Then you might have to pull them back into, “What are you doing for yourself?” I like to use the analogy that you can’t pour from an empty cup. Even if we are really trying to get our head around all of the other things that happen in separation, if parents are running on empty, they’re going to have less patience. They’re going to be less capable of being the type of parent that they want to be for their children.
(19:03): It might be that they’re sort of running, running, running. Then there might be a really small thing that happens. It might be on the school run, someone can’t find the other shoe, or they can’t find their library book or something like that. And in that moment, that’s often the straw that breaks the camel’s back. And I really like to work with parents around how do we not get to that point of overwhelm, that point of breaking that point where patience has completely been lost. And by doing that, we need to focus on parents’ own mental health, on their own safety, their own wellbeing.
Chris Dolman (19:37): I asked Alesha what she explores after that.
Alesha Akintoye (19:40): After that, I usually ask into what small thing do they do for themselves day to day? Or what small thing can they do when you leave your session here today? “What small thing can you do for yourself?” And that might be when the kids are in bed, they can have a bath, that they can read a book, or maybe on their way home they could go and take the dog for a walk. It’s the things that they are in control of right now and that they can do often because there’s always the hope of future thinking that what they would love to be able to do. And sometimes we get very focused on that, but if we can have a conversation around what small things can you do now?
(20:21): And I check in around what do they actually do? Because people have great ways of coping, and I might suggest that they listen to a podcast or read a book, and they might not actually be someone who reads, they might prefer to do some mindful colouring in, or there’s usually something that we do to calm ourselves. And I think that opens up another conversation around healthy ways of coping, because sometimes parents lean into maybe drinking more alcohol or they might be smoking, or there might be some unhealthy habits. Having a conversation around what’s happening there, maybe referring them to other counselling services where they can get support, but really leaning into the strengths that they have already.
Chris Dolman (21:03): I then asked Alesha what she thinks it’s like for parents to take stock and realise some of the things they are already doing to look after themselves.
Alesha Akintoye (21:10): I do think it can be a bit of a light bulb moment. They may already know that they go for a walk, but they may not have noticed that when they go for a walk, their minds switch off and they come back and they feel calmer and they’re a bit happier. It’s really noticing, “Oh, this is actually really good for me and I’ve already put this in place for myself. I’m already taking care of myself.” Then we can build on that. How often are you doing it? If it’s once a month, can it become once a week? Really building on the things that they already enjoy to take care of themself. Then I think it leans into their values and their morals as well. And I guess it opens up a bigger conversation around what they want to pass on to their children too. Yeah, that’s a lovely way of exploring that with parents.
Chris Dolman (21:58): Emerging Minds Family Partner Vanya reminds us of the importance of practitioners seeking to understand the context of separation in order to best support parents and ultimately children’s wellbeing.
Vanya (22:08): It’s really ideal for a practitioner to, rather than just look at the current situation, it would be great if they delve that little bit deeper to work out the context of the situation, why they may be separating, some of the history behind what’s happened with the family situation. And just be curious and ask those questions because parents aren’t always going to be open and honest or feel that they can if they don’t have that rapport with the practitioner. Because generally, I know from my own experience when I went to the practitioner, no questions were really asked even though they’d known my history, but I was just sent off on my merry way to deal with it myself. No, it’s definitely the context. Is there family and domestic violence involved? Is there some family pressure that they’re wanting you to divorce or you just need to try and break in and see what really is going behind before you can focus on the wellbeing of the parent.
Chris Dolman (23:13): I appreciate Vanya’s feedback and encouragement for practitioners to take time to understand the context of separation in order to support the wellbeing of parents and children. It seems significant. Well, that brings us to the end of this podcast episode. Thank you again to our guests, Emerging Minds Family Partners, Jocelyn, Vanya, Allan, and Jamie for sharing their ideas and insights from their lived experience. And thanks to Roxanne Nathan, Alesha Akintoye, Helen McMullan, and Clare Daly for their generosity in sharing their practise reflections from their work with families navigating separation and divorce.
(23:43): In episode two of this three part series, we’ll be exploring some practise ideas for supporting parents to be child-focused in their approach to parenting. These themes are more covered in Emerging Minds online course, supporting children’s mental health when working with separating parents. If you’re interested in this free online course, please visit our website at EmergingMinds.com.au. Thanks so much for joining us today, and we look forward to your company next time.
Narrator (24:07): Visit our website at www.EmergingMinds.com.au to access a range of resources to assist your practise. Brought to you by the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health, led by Emerging Minds. The National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health, under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.