Transcript for
Supporting children who experience bullying
Jessica Staniland (00:00): It’s really important for us as practitioners to know that we have a really significant role in helping to understand what is and what isn’t bullying, and I think that that can have a really big impact on the children that we see.
Narrator (00:14): Welcome to the Emerging Minds Podcast.
Nicole Rollbusch (00:19): Hi, I’m Nicole Rollbusch. On today’s episode, I’m joined by Jessica Staniland, a clinical psychologist and the Director of Counselling and Psychological Services at Trinity Grammar School in Sydney. Jess has a wealth of experience in supporting children around various issues affecting their mental health, including bullying. This episode is part one of a two part series on supporting the mental health of not only children who are experiencing bullying, but those who are engaging in the behaviour as well. In part one today, we’ll be focusing on children who’ve experienced bullying and how practitioners can support their mental health. Throughout both episodes, we’re going to be applying the practise discussed to a couple of case studies, so you’ll hear us referring to Olivia and Sam throughout the episodes. If you’d like more information about either of these cases, please check out the online course practise strategies for childhood bullying, where these cases are both featured in more detail, and you can find that one on the Emerging Minds website.
(01:18): For today’s episode, we’ll be using the case of Olivia. Olivia is 12 years old and she lives with her mom, Anna, her dad, David, and her 16 year old sister Natasha. Olivia has been experiencing bullying behaviour from a few girls at her school since starting at high school this year. Things like name calling, comments on her appearance and sharing unflattering photos on social media. So without any further delay, let’s get into it.
(01:46): Jess, thanks for chatting with me today. It’s great to have you here. I wanted to start by asking you about some of the key considerations in working with children who are experiencing bullying. What sorts of things are you thinking about when working with the child who presents with issues around bullying?
Jessica Staniland (02:02): I think, understanding the extent of the bullying is really important, so understanding how long it’s been going on, the severity of the bullying, where it’s happening, whether it’s within the school setting, whether it’s outside of school, whether it’s cyber bullying. So really I guess, understanding the context is really important.
(02:21): The other really important thing is the impact that the bullying is having on that particular child. So it might be that the impact is minimal, but it also might be that the impact is that it’s really resulting in some significant mental health challenges or potentially at worst, it’s even resulting in them starting to develop some concerns around self-harm or suicidal ideation. So I think that really determines our approach and who we get involved and how soon we act.
(02:50): The final thing probably is also just, is the school involved? Are they aware, and have they had any input to date around this? Because we don’t know, if the bullying is happening to them, it may well be happening to a number of other students. The person who is doing the bullying may be really well known to the school, or it might be a sort of a one-off incident, so it’s really important for us to understand those things.
Nicole Rollbusch (03:09): So you’re a practitioner, you are holding all these things in mind, and then a child comes to you who’s been experiencing bullying. A few practitioners have told me that they don’t even know where to start the conversation. What would you like other practitioners to know about where to start, and I guess, opening up that dialogue with a child who’s been experiencing bullying?
Jessica Staniland (03:31): So look, I can understand why practitioners find it really hard to start that conversation around bullying, I think I’ve definitely experienced that myself at times, but I think probably what’s really important to know as a starting point is you know what, some kids actually don’t even know whether this is bullying and they don’t even know whether this is something to be concerned about. And that’s our role as practitioners, to let them know that actually this is not okay. This behaviour is not okay, this is not acceptable, and it’s having a really big impact on them. So I think it’s really important for us as practitioners to know that we have a really significant role in helping to understand what is and what isn’t bullying, and I think that that can have a really big impact on the children that we see.
(04:12): The other thing is, there’s obviously a lot of shame and embarrassment and guilt, I think, for children who do report bullying, and I think maybe that’s something that holds us back in having those conversations. But I think it’s really important for us to know that we have a really big role in actually reducing that shame and embarrassment and guilt around bullying. So I think I would say to practitioners, “We have a really important role here, so I think, trust your instincts and give it a go.”
(04:39): I think, probably in terms of asking questions around bullying, I’d be really cautious to try and use really open-ended questions and just explore and be intrigued and be interested and be curious about what’s going on for that student. I think using open-ended questions instead of direct questions, helps to gather as much information as we possibly can about what’s going on for them, and prevents things from being led in a particular direction.
Nicole Rollbusch (05:06): So we’ve got our case study, Olivia, who’s been experiencing bullying. If we look at that initial exploration of her experience and I suppose opening up that dialogue with her, what would you be interested in knowing particular?
Jessica Staniland (05:22): I think just doing a bit of a timeline around the times when those incidences have happened so you can better understand exactly, from her perspective I guess, whether things have started to escalate, whether they started high and they’re sort of teetered off, is it happening every week? Is it happening once a month? Is it happening daily? We really need to understand that. Is it just the one girl or is it this group that are all doing things collectively or are they doing things individually, because that can have a big impact? Is there anybody within that group that actually is just a bit on the outer and are they being impacted? Could they be a support for her? So better understanding I guess, that sort of social context. Is there anybody else at school that she feels comfortable to go to, even if it’s not within that group? I do wonder whether there is anybody else that feels unsafe at school, particularly with this girl.
(06:13): And I think the other thing to speak with Olivia about would be exactly how other people are drawn into bullying incidences and maybe why they might be. If there’s a group of five girls, maybe there’s one ringleader, the other girls may or may not be being coerced into doing some of this bullying behaviour, and helping her to understand a little bit about maybe why that happens.
(06:35): I think a really important approach, and potentially we might talk about this a bit more as we go into it, is recognising as well, her strengths and the protective factors and the positive things in this situation. She’s come from a school where she has had friends, she has friends outside of school, so she has the capacity to make friends, and this is a really unusual situation for her, this is not something she’s experienced before, it doesn’t sound like. So helping to draw, in our approach with her, helping to draw out the positives and those protective factors. She’s got a loving family, she’s got a great relationship with her sister, she’s got friends in external places, including nippers. So helping her to build on those things, so that if we think about the stars shining in the sky instead of this one star just being the key focus, let’s try and light up the stars around her and focus on those things.
Nicole Rollbusch (07:31): Yeah, I like that shining star metaphor. I’d like to go back to what you said earlier about shame and embarrassment that children can feel about experiencing bullying, which then prevents them from reporting it. How would you support kids to move away from those feelings of shame, or I suppose normalise the reporting of bullying?
Jessica Staniland (07:53): I think as much as we don’t want to normalise the concept of bullying, I think it can be really reassuring for students to know that bullying, unfortunately, as much as we don’t want it to be, is something that happens to a lot of children. I think the most recent stat I heard was that something like one in four Australian children experience bullying. And so I think sometimes just giving a sense of, look, this is not a you thing, this unfortunately happens to so many students. This is not because of anything necessarily that you’ve done or the way that you are. This is an unfortunate thing that we are dealing with more broadly, and let us work together to try and manage the situation for you and to help you to be able to manage on a daily basis.
Nicole Rollbusch (08:41): I wonder if that’s not always an easy conversation to have or for kids to make sense of? I guess I’m curious about how those conversations go so that they make sense to the child, and that they’re able to take that on board so it makes a difference.
Jessica Staniland (08:58): I think often, kids who come in who’ve experienced bullying, really have quite a lack of understanding around bullying itself and why it happens. I think the information that we are sharing is often new information, and I think that they’re often quite open to that because it is new and it’s a different way of thinking about things. So look, in my experience, it doesn’t take much to explain that potentially that’s happening.
(09:25): And often you’ll find that kids will come and say, “Oh yeah, Johnny, I know that Johnny does have a bit of a hard time at home.” Or, “His parents are separated.” Or, “I think yeah, Johnny’s been in trouble a couple of times before.” Or, “Yeah, I think I remember Johnny getting some support at school a while ago.” Those sorts of things. Usually kids sort of go, “Oh yeah, actually that makes a bit of sense, potentially there is something more going on for them.” So look, often it’s not a hard conversation to have, it’s actually quite an enlightening and reassuring conversation to have. And I think sharing of new information, which is great for these kids who are experiencing this, particularly for the first time.
Nicole Rollbusch (10:05): And when kids understand that and they go, “Oh, hang on, maybe this isn’t about me.” What kind of impact can that have for them?
Jessica Staniland (10:13): Massive impact. You can kind of see sometimes that’s a real light bulb moment and you see kids sort of sitting in the chair going, “Oh, okay. Yeah, maybe somebody else has experienced this in the past.” Or, “Actually that makes me think about Johnny in a whole different way. I no longer feel as frustrated or angry at Johnny because I can kind of reflect that maybe this is not great behaviour and there’s no excuse for the behaviour, but maybe there is more to it than I had originally thought about.”
Nicole Rollbusch (10:42): That understanding that there’s more to it. And with Olivia, obviously the comments have been about her appearance, she’s being excluded and that sort of thing. How might you work with her specifically to move away from those feelings of self blame and feeling as though it was her fault?
Jessica Staniland (11:02): I find when working with children who’ve experienced some bullying, it’s really important to spend a bit of time helping them to understand actually why bullies do engage in bullying behaviour. I think trying to help them to understand that there are reasons behind this behaviour that are not their fault, is really key, and I think is a real starting point to reduce some of that self blame and embarrassment and shame.
(11:25): So some of the things that we will often talk about in sessions when I see students who’ve experienced bullying are, often the people who are engaging in bullying may well have an underlying diagnosis. We don’t know. They might struggle with social interactions. They might struggle picking up social cues. They might be delayed in terms of their learning and capacity, we don’t know. The other thing is that they could be very vulnerable themselves, they might be covering up something that is underlying, there may be concerns at home. They may be really struggling with a big change that’s going on. They might not have any positive role models themselves. It may be that they’re really struggling to fit in and this is their way of, I guess, attempting to fit in, an attempt to be liked by other people, and that may or may not fare well for them in the end, but this is possibly their attempt at doing that. And we see that kind of contagion effect that people kind of go along with it because they think, “Well, if I don’t, I’m going to be the loser that doesn’t join in.”
(12:25): So when we look at things from that perspective, I think sometimes it’s a lot easier for kids to understand, “Do you know what? This actually isn’t my fault. There could be quite a lot going on behind the scenes for this other student. You never know. They may be having that behaviour modelled to them by somebody else.” And usually one of those factors is the case, usually bullying doesn’t come out of the middle of nowhere. So I think just helping Olivia to understand that there are likely other things going on for this particular girl that we cannot necessarily fix, but are not her fault, as well.
Nicole Rollbusch (12:59): So even with having a conversation about moving away from that self blame, we know that experiencing bullying can have a significant effect on a child’s sense of self-worth and connection to others. How would you work with a child like Olivia who’s been experiencing bullying, to build up their self-worth and I guess, make clear those positive connections that might already exist in their lives, but maybe they’re finding it hard to see at the moment.
Jessica Staniland (13:28): So in terms of their connections, I think particularly with Olivia, I think she mentioned that she’s good at nippers, which is really great, and she’s close with her sister, so that’s fantastic. So I do wonder what’s her sense of social connection at Nippers? Does she feel like she’s got a group of friends there that she feels good about, that she feels comfortable with, and that’s giving her that sense of social connectedness? Her sister, I think is only a few years older, so is there anybody that she feels comfortable with in terms of her sister’s group? And is there peers there that she’s gotten along with in the past that she might be able to engage with?
(14:02): Is there anybody else at school that shares sort of similar interests to her? Is it that potentially there are groups on at recess and lunchtime that might include things like, I don’t know, chess or debating or Christian groups or sports groups or library groups? Are there areas that she can seek out hobbies in, which might help her to find other people who have shared interests and maybe have more shared and aligned values and ideas, I guess, around what a friendship is and what a friendship should look like. So I guess, helping her to draw on her hobbies and her interests and to seek out social opportunities through those.
(14:40): Understanding as well from her perspective, what is great about her as a friend? What does she see as some great qualities that she has as a friend to give as well? So I think starting at that point is really nice because it sets the grounding for what we’re looking for. Okay, so that’s the type of friend that you would like to be or that’s the type of friend that you would like, let’s explore some of the other areas in your life, are there people there that already fit that mould around being a friend? If not, are there people that might fit that mould around being a friend, and helping to use that as a bit of a starting point.
(15:17): In terms of her sense of self-worth, I think self-worth is often driven by our sense of achievement and accomplishment, I find. And so when students feel a sense of achievement and feel a sense of accomplishment in something, they often feel a lot better about themselves too. So that kind of, again, drawing upon things that she feels good at, what are her strengths? Is she really good at sport? Is she particularly good at science or maths or English? Whatever it is, giving her a bit of a boost in those areas and building those areas up for her.
(15:54): Again, going back to that star analogy, if we are thinking that her self-worth is solely focused on socialising, which may be one star, that’s going to be a pretty dull nighttime, but if we can try and draw upon a number of other stars and help her to build her sense of self-worth that’s focused on other things that she’s really good at, it’s going to be a lot brighter for her.
Nicole Rollbusch (16:16): Yeah, that’s an interesting point. I think we can focus a lot on friendships and socialising in terms of connection and worth. Children who are experiencing bullying might be feeling like they don’t want to make friends or they can actually be feeling really vulnerable about that after their experience. Can you talk a little bit more about that importance of, I suppose, connecting to things that go beyond socialising?
Jessica Staniland (16:41): Yeah, absolutely. You’re right, and that’s a real gradual approach. If they have had their self-esteem really impacted by a situation that involves socialising, and potentially you’re right, they may not want to go out, they may be reluctant to put themselves out there. And unfortunately we find with those kids, if they don’t put themselves out there, they have less opportunities to socialise and therefore that kind of reinforces that cycle. So I’d say, from my perspective, it would be about really gradually increasing that back again, and that would involve starting wherever they feel safe. It might be that once they’re feeling like they’re in a better place and their self-esteem is boosted a little bit, could they email a friend and say, “Hey, would you be interested in coming and having a play date at my house or getting a coffee or whatever it is?”
(17:28): Sometimes that feels far less confronting than talking to somebody one on one, and that sense of rejection might be seen in my face. Could they text? There are other ways of doing that. But yes, you’re right, boosting their self-esteem is really important, and that can be done in so many other ways. Building up through their academic work, or it could be doing something that they’ve never done before that doesn’t involve socialising, getting involved in some sort of an activity outside of school that doesn’t involve socialising. I don’t know, it could be something that they’ve never done before, and just building their sense of accomplishment and achievement and creativity is really important.
Nicole Rollbusch (18:09): I guess, despite what we’ve just talked about, we do know that having a team of supportive people around a child is one of the most protective factors against the effects of bullying. Given that it is so important, how might you work with a child to help them decide who they’d want on their team?
Jessica Staniland (18:26): So I think I’d probably start from the point of, who do you feel like you can go to that you trust that it’s okay to feel vulnerable with? Is there a key support person for you at school? And that might be a teacher, it might be the school counsellor, it might be a year advisor. It doesn’t even have to be anybody that’s directly related to you, it might be somebody that you connected with once and you felt comfortable speaking with them. So getting them to really reflect on who they feel comfortable confiding in, so that might be at school. The other thing is, do they feel comfortable speaking with mom, dad, the sister, at home? Is there any other key support person outside of school that they feel comfortable with? Is it that they have an external psychologist? Are they open with them? Do they feel like they’ve developed enough rapport to engage with them openly and feel like they can trust them with that information?
(19:22): A GP, for example, or anybody else that’s external that might be able to play a part. And yet, you know what? I think it’s always helpful to think outside the box in these situations as well. It might not always be the core family members, it might be that an auntie is somebody that they engage with really well, or it might be that a cousin is somebody that’s experienced this before and kind of knows what they’re going through so they feel comfortable talking to them about it. So being open and just kind of exploring, is there anybody else that I haven’t considered in asking about them being key supports for you?
Nicole Rollbusch (19:55): And going back to Olivia, is there anything specific that you would explore with her around her care team?
Jessica Staniland (20:02): Yeah, so I think for her in particular, same as what I mentioned before, it would be really reflecting back to her, who do you feel like you can trust and that you can confide in and that you feel like you can be safe and vulnerable with? And if she really has trouble identifying, then maybe you could say, I know you’ve got a really good relationship with your sister, would she be somebody you could talk to about this? I noticed that mom and dad indicated that they have a really close relationship with you, are they people that you feel like you could talk to? I know there’s a school counsellor there, have you seen that person before, are they somebody that is a safe space to go to? So I guess if she isn’t able to identify herself, maybe throwing out a couple of key people that you are aware of and asking her, would they be appropriate people to go to, would you feel comfortable going with them?
Nicole Rollbusch (20:53): Great. Yeah, because I imagine for some kids, that can be quite difficult for them to identify people.
Jessica Staniland (20:59): Yeah, absolutely. Particularly if they feel like trust has been broken in other circumstances, it can be really, really challenging. It depends on their experience, it depends on if they’ve gone to somebody before and they’ve been dismissive of them. So it really depends on the background and their past experiences, who they’re likely to want to go to seek help in the future.
Nicole Rollbusch (21:21): And we’re coming to the end of our time today, but is there anything else you’d like to add for practitioners to know or consider in supporting children who’ve experienced bullying, before we go?
Jessica Staniland (21:32): I think look, the most important thing for me is, always be curious, always be open to learn more about what’s going on. It often is never going to be focused just on one particular environment. It usually spreads across a number of environments. So I guess be cognizant of that and ask questions that are quite broad to try and get as much information as you possibly can. I think the other thing is, look, there are going to be times when kids will either downplay what’s going on because they’re worried about being snitches or they’re worried about getting in trouble or the bullying increasing, so we really need to be aware of that too.
(22:08): We don’t just need to listen to what they’re saying to us, but we also need to be looking at those subtle cues in how they’re engaging with us, their body language, their tone of voice, that sort of thing. Is there something that indicates that they’re worried about what might happen if they’re actually really open and honest about this?
(22:25): And then the other thing is also, some students will just not even recognise that this is bullying and this is something to be concerned about. So I think remembering as a practitioner, that our role is to tell them or to help them to understand what is appropriate behaviour and what isn’t appropriate behaviour, and let them know what is bullying, because I think sometimes it is hard to understand. There may be subtle experiences of neglect or there may be more subtle and less obvious situations that maybe they’ve just sort of let go and thought, oh, well, that’s just what happens. Sometimes they don’t know that actually that can be really harmful and really damaging in the longer term.
Nicole Rollbusch (23:07): Well, thanks so much for sharing some of your practise wisdom with us, Jess. I look forward to speaking with you again for part two of our conversation.
Jessica Staniland (23:16): No worries. Bye.
Nicole Rollbusch (23:17): And thanks to our listeners as well for joining us. I hope you’ll join us again for part two of this podcast, which will focus on supporting the mental health of children who engage in bullying behaviour. Bye for now.
Narrator (23:30): Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au to access a range of resources to assist your practise. Brought to you by the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health, led by Emerging Minds. The National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.