Transcript for
Supporting children with big feelings

Narrator (00:02): 

Welcome to the Emerging Minds Families podcast. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (00:05): 

Hi, I’m Alicia Ranford and you’re listening to an Emerging Minds Families podcast. Before we start today’s episode, we would like to pay respect to the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains. We also pay respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, their ancestors and elders, past, present and emerging from the different first Nations across Australia.  

Just like adults, infants and children experience really big feelings. They get nervous and sad, jealous and frustrated, all the feelings that bubble up in everyday life. But unlike adults, children don’t often have the words to talk about how they’re feeling, and they can communicate them in lots of different ways. As a parent, it can be really difficult to know how to support children when they’re experiencing these big feelings. 

(00:52): 

Today we are talking with Gen Muir. Gen is a social worker, parent educator, author, founder of Connected Parenting and mum to four beautiful boys. She knows firsthand how difficult it can be to manage children’s big emotions and has been helping families managing the ups and downs of daily life for over 25 years. Gen is going to help us understand today what we can do as caregivers to support children who are experiencing these big feelings, when they don’t have the words to tell us what they need. Welcome Gen. Thanks so much for joining us today. 

Genevieve Muir (Guest) (01:24): 

Thank you so much for having me. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (01:27): 

Gen, I know you’ve been helping parents to navigate daily life for many years. Can you tell us a little bit about your journey and how you first became interested in supporting children’s well-being? 

Genevieve Muir (Guest) (01:37): 

Absolutely. A few different pathways led me here. One was that my mum was a mental health worker and family therapist, so I grew up with a lot of these ideas already within my home, and then I became a social worker. So I’ve worked in mental health, in the law, in domestic violence, and what I started to see was that so many of the problems that I was working with in my work really came down to children having one connected relationship that provided a lot of their needs, particularly in the early years, but it’s never too late. I really started to see how that really was the answer to a lot of the problems that we were facing in the world, but then I went on to have my own children and I went in thinking, “Well, who could be better prepared? I’m going to win the Mum Olympics because I’ve got all these resources. I’m a social worker, I literally have a degree in communication here. I am going to nail this.” 

(02:31): 

And I went pretty well for the first year, and then I had my second baby and he didn’t eat or sleep for two years. And my older child in the meantime became a toddler who like many toddlers, he was struggling to regulate all of his emotions. He was having some big feelings and socially, occasionally he would push and snatch and even bite. And I found myself in these particular moments, despite knowing the parent I wanted to be, despite being quite well-educated around what children needed, I couldn’t find it in the moment, and that pushed me, like parenting can. It broke me down to my knees to be honest, and I just thought, “I need to know how to be what my boys need.” And I became very determined to work out not just what do kids need, but what gets in the way of us being that in the moment, and that’s really become my passion. It feels like all worlds led to this place if that makes sense. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (03:30): 

Oh, it does. And I love what you said is that parenting actually brought you to your knees because that’s the similar experience that I had. And you do. You think you’ve got all this knowledge and all this training and background, and then we’re all just human, aren’t we? When you talk about these big feelings, can you explain a little bit more to our listeners what you mean by them? 

Genevieve Muir (Guest) (03:51): 

We know that children communicate their emotions through their behaviour. We know that it’s normal for toddlers to melt down. We know that it’s normal for siblings to fight. What the stat is between three and eight years of age, siblings fight around eight times an hour and most parents will be like, “Yes, we know all this. We know that kids are meant to find the word no and push back and that they’re going to struggle with worry or anxiety or jealousy, all of those emotions.” I just think what we struggle with often is that we get given this baby and I think we know that they need us to pat and rock them to make them okay. It makes sense, they can’t talk any other way. And then next thing, our child is maybe two or three or four and five and we start to think, “Well, shouldn’t you be more on top of all of this by now?” 

(04:36): 

So, I think there’s a couple of issues. One is that we have a lack of understanding truly about child development. We think that kids are supposed to get it together at a certain point, and the truth is that they don’t really get it together until 25 to 28 years of age when that frontal lobe fully forms. And up until then, literally how they grow the brain is through mucking up. I think that’s one of the issues. The other issue is there is this covert thing, and we’ll talk more about it today, but there is this covert thing in the room, which is we don’t really see our children’s behaviour just as it is. We don’t see our children with our eyes, we see them with our mind. So there is so much going on in any given moment. 

(05:17): 

When my child has a meltdown, I can know at that cognitive level, this is normal, two-year-olds do this. Yet why does my heart start racing? Why do I feel like I’m going into fight, flight or freeze? Why do I feel that if I don’t shut this behaviour down, I might fail in my parenting or that there might be something wrong with my child? And that’s because there is so much going on for us in these moments, and that’s the real challenge of this as parents is that we’re trying to do things a bit differently, often to the way that we were raised. Therefore, we’re doing this without a roadmap. And often for millennial parents that I’m working with now, we are really learning about emotions alongside our kids, and that is hard. 

(05:56): 

Though I often say to people, even my 15-year-old, he’s not going to come home even with the level of brain development he’s got and say, “Mom, I’m feeling really worried about my Spanish test. Can we have some connection? Can we have a cuddle?” He’s going to pick on his brother and he’s going to not listen when I say, “Pick up your shoes,” and he’s going to complain there’s no good food in the house. And as parents, we start to think, “Maybe I’m getting something wrong. Maybe my child is disrespectful,” and we can help our kids with their behaviour, but only if we get to that underlying emotion first. And so our job is to start seeing the underlying emotion behind this behaviour, “That’s not like you. What’s going on?” But tuning into that just some of the time, I always say. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (06:39): 

And what a great point because I think so many of us grew up not understanding emotions ourselves, and now we are trying to parent our children through that. And do you think that’s really the crux of why it can be so hard to support children through this time? 

Genevieve Muir (Guest) (06:54): 

100%. I think it’s the two things. One is our misunderstanding. We overestimate what kids are capable of emotionally and underestimate what they’re capable of physically. So that’s one factor within society. And then the second one is our feelings about feelings. So our feelings about feelings, which is meta feeling, that so much of the way we feel about feelings got established in the first 11 months of our life. That blows me away every time I even think about it, that by 11 months of age, you’ve learned to read which emotions your parents prefer in you and which emotions that they find really uncomfortable, and you’ve learned to hide or not show some of those emotions by 11 months. By five years, even more so, a lot of our attachment style is set. 

(07:40): 

Now, that’s not to say we can’t ever change our feelings about feelings. Most of us are working on it alongside our kids. We’re trying to get more comfortable with the sadness and the worry and the comparison to others and all of that stuff that we do, but really knowing that that’s playing such a big role and it’s sitting there and until we start to recognise, “Hey, why is this so big for me in the moment?” We’re going to struggle to be what our kids need because then we are reacting and we go to fight, flight or freeze, and we are really responding often either exactly in the way that someone responded to us or in many cases with a lot of parents I work with, they’re struggling, for example, to set and hold boundaries because they’re actually trying to avoid being what their parents were, which felt scary or mean or really overbearing or sometimes violent. And so they’re doing a fantastic job at avoiding playing out those damaging patterns. 

(08:39): 

But as a result, they really struggle to be… Kids don’t just need soft and connection and love all the time. They do need love all the time, but really, sometimes we have to be quite firm as well. They need someone to lead and say, “Hey, obviously your frontal lobe’s offline, so I’m taking over here and I’m going to help you with this.” So in these really big emotional moments, we’re being this balance of kind and firm, and it really is playing this role between containing our child from stopping behaviour that isn’t going to work for them, as well as being empathetic and kind and really helping them navigate the emotions underneath it. And that’s the tricky bit because I’ve never met a parent that balances that kind and firm. None of us just go, “Oh, yeah, I’m so great at that. When my child’s mucking up, I feel just so kind and firm.” 

(09:27): 

We all fall one way or another, and often we partner up with someone who’s our opposite. And so we are getting our heads around the fact that we’ve got to find that balance between us and our partner often, and we’ve got to find where we fall down. And so for me, I actually sit on the firm side. I naturally want to say, “Because I said so,” and I have to find my kind, I have to find that empathy. And when I do, it goes so much better. When I forget, and we all forget, we all have our moments that we’re not perfect, it doesn’t go so well because our kids know, when we are not being kind, they’re not going to respond, they’re not going to feel heard. And so things are just not going to go. They’re not going to hear us, and that’s so hard about it. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (10:05): 

And we hear so many times from parents that there’s this ideal of perfect parenting and we’ve got to get it right all of the time. And that’s just not the reality, is it? 

Genevieve Muir (Guest) (10:14): 

It’s definitely not. And one of the most liberating things that parents can find, and we know this through Circle of Security particularly, which I love that course for parents, but learning that children need us to really show up for them, particularly in their emotions. So in these really small and big emotions, around 30% to 40% of the time is an amazing amount. I’ve got four kids and learning that sometimes you don’t have it in you, sometimes that’s not what they need. Sometimes we’re not stopping and dropping for every emotion. Once we can not only know that, but then give ourselves grace and compassion in those moments we don’t get it, to learn that that actually improves your parenting. 

(10:53): 

For those parents that want to show up and be yelling less and be able to tune in better and all of that stuff that we all want as parents, one of the things I’ve learned over the years and one of the things I teach is that you don’t get there through berating yourself and saying, “You should get this right all the time.” And in fact, it’s just not what kids need. And sometimes in the moment, especially in really big emotions with kids, when they’ve really flipped their lid for a variety of reasons, we are navigating something. We’re not guessing, but we’re going, “I know there’s firm and containment, I know there’s empathy,” and I’m sometimes just working out in that moment, “Which way am I going?” And there’s no perfect in that. Sometimes we’re going to set a foot wrong and go for, “I’m going to help you and I’m going to set a limit.” And then we go, “That’s not what my kid needed. They really need empathy,” and we’re allowed to stop and go, “Hey, I got that wrong. Let’s try that again.” 

(11:43): 

We’ve got repair as well that we can do later, but we also can redirect in the moment and go, “I’m going to change tracks. I’m not going to stay here out of fear, that I’ve got to keep doing what I’m doing even though it’s clearly not working.” And I think once you realise it can be that kind of a process, it’s a lot easier. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (12:00): 

Oh, and what a nice message to think that you can be getting it wrong right at that moment and then go, “Hang on a second. That’s not quite working. Let’s try something new.” I think that will resonate with every parent listening today. And if we go back to these big feelings, what are the kind of things that children are trying to tell us with these big emotions that they’re showing? 

Genevieve Muir (Guest) (12:19): 

Do you know? I think one of the simplest things we can do to work out what do our kids need? “What is my child saying in the moment?” Is just this, and I love it, “Is my child okay or not okay?” I love that because often we are so confused in the moment. Now, ultimately, what kids are often trying to say is, “I’m not okay. I need your help. I need help to organise these feelings. I need help to feel seen or I need help to be contained. I actually can’t stop hitting the baby. I need you to stop me.” It’s an example of, “Help me, stop me.” But they’re the kind of things our kids are communicating. But one of the things that we see all over social media these days, and I’m part of it, but all this information and advice on what you should say and what you should do and naming emotions, for example. 

(13:04): 

Now, we don’t really want to be naming emotions in too much detail. If our child is at 10 out of 10 on the Richter scale, they’re not going to hear us and it’s probably going to make things worse. There’s also a risk that if we are naming emotions just to shut them down, our kids feel that. So I love this, “Is my child okay or not okay?” And my next step from there is I repeat out loud what I’m seeing. So I’ll just give you a quick example, but there was a mum in the hospital recently because I teach parenting classes at a maternity unit, and a mum came to me, she said, “My three-year-old came up to me and whispered in my ear.” So they met the baby for the first time, a big sister, becoming a big sister for the first time, met the baby, it all went well. 

(13:46): 

And as she left to go home, this little girl climbed up on the bed and she said, whispered in her mum’s ear, “When you bring the baby home, I’m going to put it behind a curtain.” And the mum said, “Is my child headed for prison? Is there a problem here?” I said, “I absolutely love this.” Now, actually, this is very sophisticated because what another child might do is just hit the baby or melt down because they can’t even communicate, “There’s something about this that’s uncomfortable,” and that child’s just saying that, right? But we don’t necessarily find that in the moment. That’s just one example. 

(14:16): 

So what we can do is we pause, we go, “Is my child okay or not okay?” My gut instinct is saying not okay in that moment. And then I might repeat back what I hear. When we get home, you’re thinking you might put the baby behind the curtain. That gives me a beat to process what might be going on, and I think within that little beat, either way, our child feels heard. We haven’t left them alone and we haven’t dismissed it and said, “No, no, no, you’re not going to put the baby behind a curtain. You’re going to love this baby. He’s going to be your best friend. Just you wait and see,” which we do that out of love, but that’s not going to help our child. 

(14:47): 

But if we can just take that beat and go, “You want the baby behind the curtain? Something feels uncomfortable about this, and if you felt a bit worried, that makes so much sense and do you know? We are going to work this out together. Give me a big cuddle, thanks for telling me.” And maybe we’ll say later, “I won’t let you put the baby behind the curtain. Don’t worry.” So I guess that it’s just a story because so often the behaviour of our kids is so hard to read because it is as quirky and nuanced as that example. And so I love that, “What’s our child trying to say?” If you feel uncomfortable, if you feel worried, if your stomach’s turning, if there’s anything like that, the chances are your child is saying, “I’m not okay.” And then if we repeat back what our child is saying, you really want a biscuit and mommy said no, that gives us a chance to go, “Oh, I think you’re really disappointed.” We are going to get to that emotion, but I like to almost just start with that, our child’s saying they’re not okay. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (15:45): 

And so you’ve just talked about what a parent can do. I’ve often heard you talk about doing less, parents can do less, and that’s actually really helpful. Can you explain to our listeners a bit about that? 

Genevieve Muir (Guest) (15:56): 

Absolutely. I’d love to touch on low level emotions and then high level emotions. First of all, because doing less really applies to the high level emotions. So low level emotions are those little opportunities. A bit like the child that just said, “I’m going to put the baby behind the curtain.” That’s a low level emotion because our child’s not melting down. We’re not in fight, flight or freeze. We’ve got an opportunity to tune in and do a bit more some of the time, and I love those opportunities. So an example of a low level emotion might be that my child says, “I hate butter chicken.” Now, as parents, so often we say, “But you love butter chicken.” Or we say, “If you just have a bite, there’ll be dessert, or if you don’t have a bite, there’ll be no dessert.” And these are bribes or threats. They don’t really get to the underlying feeling. 

(16:43): 

And so often for kids, the hating of the butter chicken, it’s representative or it’s sitting on top of emotions that are below that, which might be just disappointment because the butter chicken is a different shade than it was last week, and that scares me. So it might be just fear, but sometimes there is more to it. I’m three or I’m 15 and I’m processing a whole lot of stuff and I’m actually worried about something else. And sometimes when we come alongside our child, put our arm around and say, “Oh, you’re disappointed about the butter chicken. That’s tough.” As simple as those daily moments, “I can see you struggling to put your shoes on. It’s so hard to pack away the toys, it’s hard to leave the park.” All of those moments, there are low level emotions that we are not in DEFCON 4 and we’re able to do more. 

(17:27): 

Now, we don’t want to do more all the time, but I always say 30% to 40% of the time we can tune into that stuff and really show our child, “Hey, if we’re going to do that, we’re actually building that all the synapses that help them learn to regulate.” It’s a really cool thing to do, but in high level emotions. So you know a high level emotion because everybody’s screaming and throwing things and hitting each other and you feel terrified as a parent and it’s never a good moment. I love the idea of doing less because all of the information that’s out there is saying you’ve got to tell your child to take a deep breath or you’ve got to… So we’re trying to either stop the behaviour through, “Take a deep breath,” or, “It’s not such a big deal.” 

(18:03): 

So we’re either giving tools, dismissing, trying to teach, or maybe we come in with, “Don’t behave like that. Go to your room.” Maybe we come in with, “I just can’t handle this. If you are going to be like this, I’m going to collapse.” So we’re asking our child to look after our emotions in that example. But all of this is our fight, flight or freeze system coming in to say, “This is scary for me.” And it’s scary for us because chances are when we were young and we showed a similar emotion, we got sent to our room or smacked or shamed or ignored, and so we learned that wasn’t safe to express. And the problem with that now in our parenting is that our child who’s doing what they need to do to express their emotions, we are feeling very unsafe. So our instinct is, “It’s not so bad. I’ll get you another one.” All of that stuff. Our child might come up to us and be screaming, “You like my sister more than me.” And we’ll say, “Don’t be ridiculous. We love you all the same.” 

(18:57): 

So there’s all of that stuff that we are doing. The thing about once our kids are at that 10 out of 10 though, they can’t hear our words. So when I say doing less, it’s really about knowing that really, our only role in those moments when our child is really dysregulated, melting down, unless there is a risk of someone being hurt, we’re really just trying to say, “Hey, I’m here and I’m not going to lose it with you.” And that takes often all of our energy, just to take a deep breath. And I sometimes put my hand on my heart and just think, “Okay, this is the tough moment. I don’t like this stuff, but I’ve got this.” Or I might remind myself, “This is a good kid, my child is just learning.” 

(19:38): 

Sometimes when that instinct is to say to my child, “Take a deep breath,” I just focus on taking a deep breath myself and just modelling that I’m just going to take a deep breath. Of course, if kids are really so upset that they’re hitting, hurting, throwing things, at risk of harm to you, the baby, the dog, anything, we’re got a different role because they need us to step in and actually help them be more contained. And that might mean picking up a young child and saying, “I’m going to get you to your room.” It might mean just saying, “Hey, that has to stop,” to a child. “I cannot let you hit your sibling. I’m going to get between you and them and I’m going to keep everybody safe.” And we’re quite firm about that and it’s coming in with that containment. 

(20:17): 

But when I say less, we are not trying to teach in that moment how to be different. And we’re not trying to do any regulation techniques and we’re not trying to name emotions or any of that. We’re just trying to get everyone back to safety and stop ourselves from losing it. That’s our only two goals, and that is really, really hard stuff to do. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (20:35): 

And in that moment, just taking that time for yourself, that co-regulation can be so important for children. 

Genevieve Muir (Guest) (20:41): 

Completely. It makes such a difference, and the biggest thing I have found is that it’s when you stop pushing to fix it, to solve it, to stop it, to shut it down. Parents often describe this feeling of walking on eggshells, and that’s often a sign. We’re like the duck with the legs going underwater, doing everything we can to stop this emotion. And when we just surrender and go, “Okay, we’re in it, bring it, let’s do it, let’s do it kid.” And maybe there’s a big meltdown, but gosh, it feels a lot easier than when we are peddling madly to stop it or solve it, that acceptance. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (21:14): 

And do you think there are different strategies for children of different ages? 

Genevieve Muir (Guest) (21:18): 

Yes and no. Obviously with a teenager, if my 15-year-old gets really mad and says, “Leave me alone,” and slams his door, I am going to give him space. And I might say, “Okay, I’ll come and check on you and I might bring some food later and hope that we can repair and get back there.” If a four-year-old or a five-year-old says that, I’m probably going to try and stay closer and I’m going to help because I know that they cannot really do that regulation work on their own. Whereas I know with teens, they’re going to need more space. But if I could tell you, because my kids range between eight and 15, I can tell you truly, there’s not much difference. And all of us, when we have lost it, we’re all helpless. We’re all that tiny kid flailing about or Tasmanian devil spinning around, smoke coming out of our ears. 

(22:07): 

We’re all as stuck as each other, and I think our kids are all needing the same thing, which is just to know that they’re not alone, that we too know what it’s like to have an emotion like that I think is really, really important, that we love them and that they’re worthy of love even in this, I think is really important to show somehow, and that we’ve got them. We’re not going to let them make a mistake or step over that line that would be hurting someone or others. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (22:34): 

And so is it that parents should expect over time, if we sit with children and meet them where they’re at, should we see a gradual decline in the meltdowns or is it really a developmental thing and it’s more about a child’s age? 

Genevieve Muir (Guest) (22:47): 

There’s a few factors in regulation. Obviously, every child is different and the kids come out either really deep feeling and struggling with emotions or “Yeah, man, I’m chilled.” And I think also, kids will struggle at different stages. So I think the sense that at five, at eight, at 12, I’m no longer helping my child with this, and surely this ends, that’s a bit of a myth. I think that even our kid that was a really easy baby and really easy toddler can suddenly struggle with extreme anxiety from age eight to whenever, and that can absolutely wreak havoc and we’re stepping in really differently. And sometimes the really deep feeling kids where you are still dealing with massive explosive meltdowns at age five and age six and you are thinking, “I’m looking at their friends and they seem to be settling what’s wrong with my child.” I think that that is all within the realms of normal because we’re all so different and how kids deal with their emotions is so completely different. 

(23:44): 

I do think of that repeated, consistent coming in 30% to 40% of the time, helping our kids. So really, it’s about tuning into those low level emotions, using those as a consistent opportunity to build that resilience and build that regulation, and it can surprise you. Just say the little kid that says, “I’m going to put the baby behind a curtain,” which again, I think is really regulated of that kid. We can say, “Don’t worry, I won’t let you do that. And if you ever feel like putting the baby behind a curtain or if you’re ever feeling jealous, you can come and squeeze my hand or you can let me know and I’ll give you a big cuddle.” Building that idea in the low level emotions is amazing, and having our child know they can come to us and help seek, and that all builds that independent ability to regulate. 

(24:24): 

And then I think it’s sitting through the eye of the storm. So for anyone out there with someone that is, they’re struggling to regulate and it feels way beyond their peers, there’s two things I’d say. One, it will get easier. It really does. These kids that are so hard, particularly in the early years, that really struggle to regulate, sometimes those kids are easier tweens and teens is my experience, those really volatile emotional kids. And sometimes it’s about going for the ride and trusting in the process and when you get it wrong, repairing. And also putting your hand up when something doesn’t feel right in terms of if you really feel like, hang on, this is taking a huge toll on the whole family, it’s dominating the whole house. It’s really feeling like the problem is starting to spread into other areas. I always say look at the whole picture. 

(25:16): 

So we might have a child that has these explosive, volatile tantrums, meltdowns after school and then we go, what are the other factors in that child’s life? Maybe they’ve become a big brother or sister, maybe they’re in kindy and they really struggle to regulate, but if that child’s going well at school and you’re not getting any kind of feedback from the teacher and they’re making and retaining friends and they’re able to enjoy activities, we’ve got to look at that whole picture and go, it’s going to get there. We are going to get there. They just have to keep showing that for now. Whereas if that was then bleeding into every area of that child’s life and we are getting calls from school and we are getting other signs that they’re not going well, it’s about knowing when to seek help. 

(25:55): 

And then the final thing I think we can do is some emotion coaching. So that’s when we are calm and when we’re connected and at a completely later stage, just say you’ve got one child that keeps hitting their sibling and we’re doing the low level and we’re doing the stepping in in the moment when they’re really heated. And then we might choose an opportunity to go for a little walk with them side by side or shoot hoops with them or driving in the car. When you’re in that position and say, “I was thinking about that big fight you had with your brother yesterday, it seemed like,” and we just want to coach through what happened. “Seems like he touched your favourite thing and then you got upset and then you hit him, and then I got mad and that’s what happened.” 

(26:30): 

And particularly once kids are over five, we can say, “I wonder what we could do different because that didn’t go well for you or for me or for anyone. What can we do different?” And we start to build this practising outside the moment what we could do different and just trusting and believing, and believing in your kid because all kids want to be good kids. They truly do. Especially the kids that keep getting it wrong, they really want to be good kids and they keep mucking it up. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (26:53): 

And you’re right, they do wake up every morning and genuinely want for it to be a good day. No one wakes up and thinks, “I want today to be really crappy and I’m going to push my parents’ buttons.” 

Genevieve Muir (Guest) (27:01): 

“I want to be really annoying and ruin everybody’s day and I want to get yelled at. I want to be the name everyone calls.” No kid wants that. They just, again, are they okay, or not okay? That’s a kid that’s having more not okay moments. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (27:14): 

And you talked about parents seeking some further support. What would that support look like? 

Genevieve Muir (Guest) (27:18): 

Yeah, and most of these behavioural issues with kids, we want to start with a GP because that’s going to guide us into some other support. Now, I love occupational therapists. I just rave on and on about them because I’ve spent about 10 years on the floor of their offices through the raising of my four boys. So OTs are amazing, and when we talk about OT, we want an OT that’s doing floor-based sensory incorporated in motion work, not necessarily the OT that’s helping with pencil grip and posture. So there’s two kinds of OTs and we want that behavioural OT, but your GP can, and often you can get a mental health plan if there’s a significant issue going on too. So your GP is going to say, “Yeah, let’s start here.” GP also hears lots of stories. So they’re going to go, “You know what? Let’s get an assessment done.” There might be something that they think, “Let’s just get an assessment done now and find out if there’s more going on like neurodivergence or ADHD, or something like that.” 

(28:08): 

Now, just because a child is struggling regulating emotions, it doesn’t mean there’s a diagnosis. And so there’s no fear in checking it out with a GP. And I always say that even if you start with something like if a child is struggling with behaviour and emotions and their speech is behind, if we get a bit of speech therapy and then they can communicate, that makes such a difference for them. So starting with those places I think is the way to go with very young children. And obviously with older children where they are a bit more involved and they want a change, it’s about probably seeing a child psychologist, and again, talking to your GP first because they know where to send you. And starting with that I think can be really helpful, but also looking at your parenting. 

(28:45): 

So that’s probably what I do, but it’s why I wrote my book as well. But having a tool that parents could go to, because one part of it is supporting our child, but the other part is what we are kind of supporting them with in terms of that relationship at home. And so having an understanding of what brings us to our knees, what emotions we struggle with helps us so much to help these particular kids as well. So for me, it’s a bit of a two-fold thing. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (29:11): 

And we hear from a lot of families that sometimes they feel like they’ve got to walk away in that moment, that it’s too hard. Why is it really important for parents to not walk away during those moments? 

Genevieve Muir (Guest) (29:24): 

I think, walking away is better than losing it. So if you need to walk away to get yourself back to a place where you can step in, that is definitely the best approach. I definitely try to do that myself. And we are talking about sometimes it’s about something big happens and you even just turn away for a second to, “ahhhhhh,” before you turn back, or having a drink of water. Sometimes we actually need to say, “Mommy’s having a time-out and we are going to walk away.” So I do think a parental time out and the ability to pause and the ability to go, “I’m just not going to deal with this yet because I might say something that will be worse than what my child has said.” That’s really important. But then knowing that that 30%, if we can really lean in as uncomfortable as that is for us just some of the time, I think that makes such a big difference to our kids. 

(30:17): 

Often what we’re seeing is the tip of the iceberg and we lean in just on that particular issue and it just helps everything in terms of their brain, in terms of helping them regulate so that this is less intense next time. It really makes a big difference. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (30:32): 

And do you think that by leaning in and learning these skills, we can really help support children’s mental health as they grow and develop into their teen and young adult years? 

Genevieve Muir (Guest) (30:42): 

I couldn’t believe it more strongly. We know from the evidence, again, if we can lean in and do the stuff that we’ve talked about today around 30% to 40% of the time, this is our biggest chance of creating a child that reaches their potential and that’s their mental health potential, their physical health, ability to make and retain friends, academic potential, all of it. But everything we want for our kids is so much about investing a little bit in our ability to be what they need in these moments. And it’s not going to come from Kumon classes or whatever else you’re thinking of investing in. Right? So it’s seriously the most important thing we could lean into and it’s the work we need to do that is the hardest bit. 

(31:21): 

So absolutely, I think it makes the biggest difference. And like I said, in all of my work, particularly in the area of law and justice where I worked there in mental health and I just saw the significant impact that we can make while we’ve got our kids ear. And as a mum with a 15-year-old, I can tell you I’m officially lost that, obviously he still comes to us with his problems, but he values the opinion of his friends now so much more. And I’ve got the younger three that I can still tell, they hang on my every word still and I’m like, “I’m making the most of that, yes.” Once they value the opinion of their friends, which is a normal developmental stage, it’s a lot harder to turn around and start doing it then. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (32:01): 

And I feel listening to you talk today like we are being a part of a generational shift. We started this conversation talking about us perhaps not learning how to manage our own emotions as children because it was a different way of parenting when you and I were children. And so we are really helping the next generation so that when our kids have kids, they’ve got these skills to really look differently at their children and the behaviours.

Genevieve Muir (Guest) (32:25): 

It’s massive. And I often think about as educated as I was coming into my parenting, I remember the way it felt when my son was having really big meltdowns and he was fighting friends. And the way it felt inside me then, and I think of how far I’ve come through practise and practise and practise over the course of four kids. And now with my younger kids, how it’s not like it ever just gets easy-peasy, but has gotten a lot easier with that practise. And then I picture what it might be like now for my four boys when their child has their first meltdown, and are they going to feel a little bit more comfortable and a little bit more calm? And are they going to lean straight for, “Oh, you’re not okay,” instead of, “Stop that?” And I just think, what a wonderful thing, what a gift. But mostly, I think we are giving our kids, irrespective of whether they have kids, what I know is that so many of us have feelings and we just shove them down and we scroll or we shop or we drink or whatever we do. 

(33:23): 

And I just think our kids are going to have a vocab, “Oh, there, I’m feeling that emotion. I’ve had practise at regulating through that,” and it’s going to feel slightly less uncomfortable for them. And I think that’s the biggest gift of all. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (33:36): 

Gen, I love all the practical strategies that you’ve given our listeners today. And if they remember nothing else from our conversation, what would you want them to take away? 

Genevieve Muir (Guest) (33:46): 

Two things. One, you are not alone. If you have a child that is what appears as defiant or really, really shy, anxious, and you worry, I think as parents we jump to the, “If this never changes much, I will never make a friend or they’ll wind up in prison.” We jump to that end of the road, and I just want you to know you’re so not alone. We are all struggling with children who are working out how to do their emotions. And I think kids these days are showing them a little bit better than we did because we’ve allowed them the space to do this. It is a good thing. It feels terrifying in the moment, but you are not alone is what I want you to know. We all got kids with emotions and the more you can share that, talk about it, ask for help, the better. 

(34:30): 

And the second thing I would say is keep that 30% in mind. If you are sitting on the couch and you find yourself feeling really terrible because you mucked up or because you got it wrong and you didn’t go in with connection and you’re going, “I’ve got that all wrong. I totally misread my child and now I feel terrible.” I know that going in and saying sorry and repairing is just one of the best things we can do as parents. And often the breakthroughs happen, I think in repair as well. I think it’s really magical process, but just rather than beat yourself up because you got it wrong, try to catch what you did do well that day. Often I talk to parents and they lost it at dinner time and it was single parenting and right on dinner and they’ll be so upset. “I’m the worst parent, I’m pretty sure I’ve mucked my child up forever.” 

(35:14): 

And I’m like, “Number one, that’s not true. Number two, talk me through what happened from breakfast?” And this parent will tell me about all the amazing things they did. They broke up fights without losing it. They connected with their kids and they took them to the park and they did all these things that we are doing as parents, and they read them two stories, but it was just at that 11th hour they lost it. And it’s really focusing on what you got right, rather than the bit you got wrong is so much better for you. And try to say to yourself, “You know what? I really care about this. I’m a really good parent. I’m doing the best that I can. I’m absolutely doing my best.” And that self-compassion I think flows to our child because often then we’re like, “Yeah, so is my kid. Actually, they’re doing the best I can too.” And I think that gets us in a better place to start again tomorrow. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (35:57): 

What a beautiful message to finish on, Gen. Thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate you having this conversation with us. 

Genevieve Muir (Guest) (36:04): 

Absolute pleasure. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (36:06): 

And thank you to our listeners for joining us. If you would like to keep up to date with our latest conversations, we’d love it if you’d like and subscribe to our Emerging Minds Families podcast channel. You can also find us on Instagram at Emerging Minds AU, or on Facebook at Emerging Minds Families. You have been listening to an Emerging Minds Families podcast. If anything spoken about in today’s episode has been distressing for you or you find yourself struggling, please reach out for help. You can call Lifeline on 13 11 14, or more resources for support can be found in our show notes. 

Narrator (36:40): 

Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au/families, for a wide range of free information and resources to help support child and family mental health. Emerging Minds leads the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health. The Centre is funded by the Australian government Department of Health, under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.