Transcript for
Supporting children’s wellbeing during a separation or divorce

Narrator (00:02): 

Welcome to the Emerging Minds Families Podcast. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (00:05): 

Hi, I am Nadia Rossi and you’re listening to an Emerging Minds Families podcast. We would like to pay respect to the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains. We also pay respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, their ancestors and elders past, present, and emerging from the different First Nations across Australia. 

(00:32): 

Navigating through separation and divorce can understandably be one of the hardest and most stressful experiences for a family. It’s a time of great change and uncertainty. And we hear from many parents that it’s hard to know how to talk to children about what’s going on when as a parent, we may have many unanswered questions ourselves. Today I’m speaking with Alesha Akintoye. Alesha is a family law counsellor who works with families to navigate through their separation and divorce and is going to talk with us about how we can best support both our children and our own wellbeing through this difficult time. 

(01:09): 

Welcome, Alesha. It is great to speak with you today. 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (01:11): 

It’s lovely to speak with you too, Nadia. Thanks. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (01:13): 

Alesha, at Emerging Minds, we acknowledge that families come in many different forms, so I was wondering if we started today’s conversation by you telling us a bit about who makes up your family. 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (01:24): 

Yeah, sure. So my family, there’s five of us in my family, myself, my partner, and we have three kids together. And they’re seven, 12, and 13 years old. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (01:33): 

Oh, wow. 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (01:34): 

Yes, we have three boys. Yes. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (01:36): 

Oh, three boys. Busy house. 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (01:37): 

Three boys. Yes. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (01:37): 

Yes. 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (01:38): 

Lots of cooking happening. Yeah. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (01:39): 

Yeah. Oh, great. Do they get involved in the cooking yet? Are they at that age? 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (01:42): 

The older ones are getting involved, which is nice. Yeah, the younger one involved if he’s baking. So if sugar’s involved, he’s involved. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (01:48): 

Yes. Yes, fair enough. Thank you for sharing that with us. Alesha, today we’re talking about navigating through separation and divorce and how parents can do that, keeping in mind their children’s wellbeing and their own wellbeing. 

(02:01): 

So Alesha, when parents separate, how can they explain what’s happening in a way that children will understand? 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (02:08): 

Well, the thing that I always say to parents is that there are a few things that children need to hear from you when you’re having that big conversation with them. And they need to know where they’re going to be living. They need to know when they’re going to be able to see their parents. And they need to know if they’re going to be in the same school in the same area. Those are the big questions that that kids have. But also let parents know they don’t need to go into a lot of detail. And it depends on their children’s age, what sort of conversation they’re going to have with them. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (02:36): 

That’s really great because I know we talk a lot about routines. And so even in those times it’s good to talk to your child about their routine and keeping their routine. And I’m wondering, does it differ when you’re talking to a toddler, to a primary school aged child, to a teenager? Would you give different information to those age groups? 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (02:57): 

I think it does differ. When you’re talking to a toddler, you might say things like where we’ve decided to live separately. And you let them know that parents still love and care for each other and care for the toddler, the child. But it’s also important to know that they might not quite understand what that means when you’re having that first conversation. So they might have other questions maybe when someone’s moved out or when they don’t get to see someone as often as they were before. So it’s that ongoing conversation of, “Remember, this is what we’ve spoken to you about. And this is what’s happening, and you’ll be able to see mom or dad at this time.” 

(03:31): 

If you’re talking to an older child, maybe they’re in preschool, you might let them know that mom and dad might have grown apart, that there’s still a lot of love and care for each other and respect for each other, and we’re still going to love and care for you, but that’s going to look differently. And again, that would be more conversations. Lots of questions might come up after you’ve had that initial conversation as well. 

(03:53): 

And what I often say to parents of teens is that sometimes teenagers already know what’s been happening to some degree. They might have seen some disagreements, they might have noticed some tension in the household, so they may not be as surprised by this conversation. And they might also have friends who have experienced something similar. So it’s always important that parents have a sit down and a think by themselves around what their child might want to ask into, because children have different questions and parents are the experts of their children. So think before you have that conversation, what questions might be coming your way and how can you best frame those for your children. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (04:30): 

That’s amazing. And I think in a way you’ve almost simplified it by talking about the different age groups and then also leaving it as an open conversation. Do you feel that that is beneficial to let the child know that they can come to them and ask them questions later or that this is an ongoing question that mom or dad are here to answer those questions? 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (04:52): 

It is really beneficial for all of those ages to know. They can come back and say, “Oh, I didn’t quite understand that,” or “How come this is happening?” Or, “Could you remind me again?” It’s important. Sometimes we think about that one conversation that we need to have. Sometimes children don’t have any questions in that first one, and they kind of want to see what it looks like when they’re going between homes and they might need to say, “Hey, I need to have more school uniform at this house than the other house.” So really having, whether it’s a family meeting, whether it’s when you’re driving in the car and your team wants to ask you a few questions, just being open to those questions as they come up from your children. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (05:28): 

And I guess you yourself as a parent might not even know or have the answers in that first conversation. So if you’ve got that openness and you know that they can come to you, you may also come to them with more information as you are learning. 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (05:41): 

Yes. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (05:42): 

And figuring things out. 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (05:43): 

Yeah, that’s very true. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (05:45): 

Alesha, can we talk a bit about different ways children could respond to the news of separation and divorce at different ages and stages of their development? Do you see different responses in age groups? 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (05:57): 

I think I do see different responses. If it’s the younger ones, the toddlers again, parents often report that there’s that separation anxiety. Maybe when they’re dropping them off at Kindy or preschool, it’s a bit harder to get them settled. It’s a bit harder to leave them. And we know that the handovers can be really difficult for children as well, so it might be harder for them to settle. Or maybe when they’re coming to your house from the other parent seeing some different behaviours in them, maybe they’re a bit more emotional or overtired. So it does have that sort of impact on toddlers. 

(06:29): 

And the older preschool than the teenagers, we’re always mindful that they are going between two homes often. They’re needing to have two of everything. And that alone can be a frustration and a bit of annoyance that they carry with them. And you might see them sort of pushing back on the boundaries. They’re also going through their own developmental stage of finding out who are they as a person, whether they fit in the world. So there’s a lot of things happening for them already on top of the separation. So you might see some of those push back on boundaries. Sometimes you might see risky behaviours or you might see a change in their friendship groups, so they might be a bit more withdrawn or a bit anxious. So it’s important parents are keeping an eye on just checking out for what’s happening with the children. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (07:12): 

And when you are as a parent checking out and noticing those changes in behaviours, when do you think it’s time for a parent to maybe get extra support for their child? That maybe the child isn’t coping with the separation as well as they had thought or as well as their behaviour was showing you starting to see those changes. And so yeah, when would you advise a parent to seek out extra support for their child? 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (07:37): 

I think if they’re seeing or noticing that their child’s becoming anxious, maybe not just around those handovers, but it might be the school are also noticing, friends or family also noticing across different situations. There might be needing that extra support or a room to speak and say what’s happening in their lives. Or if again, school might have some concerns about risky behaviours or if children, sometimes they say, “Hey, mom or dad, I’d really like to talk to someone.” If there’s a high conflict family and there’s a lot happening between the parents, sometimes children need a space. So those are things that parents can consider. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (08:11): 

What I’m hearing, Alesha, is that having a team around the child and your children when this separation is happening and throughout, maybe the separation is something for a parent to keep in mind. How would a parent communicate that to the school? 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (08:25): 

That’s a very good question. I think parents, they say this to the school at all different times. It might be initially when the separation is happening. You might just have a little conversation with your child’s teacher and say, “Hey, this is what’s happening at home. The two parents were separating. Maybe one is moving out. I just thought I’d let you know.” So that the teachers can also be aware. They can also be checking in as well, because school life is such a huge part of their children’s life as well. So they might notice some differences. They might also come and say to the parents, “Has anything changed at home?” 

(08:58): 

I would always advise that you do just let them know. You don’t need to go into detail around what’s happened and who said what, but just that, “This is a change that’s happening in my child’s life and I wanted you to be aware.” 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (09:08): 

It’s so important to have that support around yourself and your family. Is it a conversation with your child as well that maybe you’re going to let their teacher know? 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (09:18): 

Yeah, I think that would be great, wouldn’t it? 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (09:19): 

Yeah. 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (09:22): 

If you can sit down with your child and say, “Hey, I am going to let Mrs. or Mr. whoever know this is what’s happening with the family,” just so they might check in on you at school. Or just so if you need to talk to someone, they’re a safe person in your life. Maybe you want to talk to them after class, before class. Some schools also have counselling services available or pastoral care. So maybe the school might offer that to the child as well. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (09:46): 

So again, it’s just really keeping those conversations open with your child, letting them know that there’s also other people that they can go to for support. Maybe sometimes they don’t want to talk to you, they don’t want to talk to their friends, they might not want to talk to another family member. But I guess knowing that there might be a support at the school they could go to. 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (10:03): 

And I really like what you said about having the team around the family because that could be the schools, like you said, GP. It might be friends. It might be extended family as well. So it’s good to have that support around you. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (10:14): 

Alesha, can we talk a bit about when things are tough? 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (10:18): 

Yep. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (10:19): 

And I don’t think any kind of separation is easy even when there’s best of intentions. So what’s the best ways parents can communicate to their children that things are tough while supporting them and their wellbeing? 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (10:33): 

Children are in the family unit, so they’re often aware when things are happening, whether that’s a tension or whether that is the separation. I think it’s really important to check in with children and see how they’re going, see what they’re noticing, if they’re worried about anything, give them that time and space for them to have your ear as well. And if things are tough, really saying that in a way that’s age appropriate. So if they’re little, even if you’re just saying, “Mom’s going through a bit of a difficult time, or dad. This is a bit hard for us right now, but together as a family, we’re going to work it out.” And not going too much into detail because we know that could sort of burden children and young people. And if they’re older, it’s actually great to have those conversations. It is resilience building. It is showing them that things are not always smooth and straightforward, but also that there’s a way through that. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (11:23): 

That’s great. And just continuing on, when the parents are going through the separation, what are the ways that parents can communicate in those tough times to support their children so that the children are seeing them communicating the best way? 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (11:38): 

So one of the things that always stands out to me, and I always ask into if parents is the handovers, what’s happening at the handovers? Because if both parents are really silent and no one’s saying anything to each other, that sends a message to the children as well that parents can’t communicate. They aren’t communicating with each other. 

(11:55): 

At the same time, if at the handovers there are arguments happening or there are small comments happening, again, children are picking up on that. They’re knowing. So if you are handing over, always encourage parents even if you can just say hello. And that might be it, “Oh, hello. How are you?” 

(12:10): 

“Fine, thank you.” And then handing the children over. So really being mindful of what the children are hearing and what they’re seeing in the way you communicate. And if it is really difficult, I say to parents, you can limit all communication to just being about the children. They might want to use parenting apps or really having that boundary in place that it is just about the children because we know with separation, the communication can be very difficult. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (12:36): 

I think that’s a really great thing to keep in mind, that children will absorb everything that is happening around them and maybe we don’t realise the behaviour that we are modelling. And so to keep that in mind that the focus is on the children at drop off and the language that you’re using is in a way for them. 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (12:55): 

And keeping in mind what it is I’m about to share, going to equip the other parent to be the best parent over maybe the week that they have the children. “Do I need to share this right now with them?” So really keeping that in mind. And even asking yourself, “How would my child feel to hear me speaking about the other parent in this way?” Because although you’ve separated, your child still has a really close relationship with the other parent. So really reminding yourself of that before you communicate can be helpful. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (13:21): 

I really loved about how can you prepare that parent for the week ahead with the child, because just spent time with them and you have knowledge about what’s happened that week. And so even if you can find it in a way to communicate, because then it gives the child, going back to what you mentioned before, them going back and forth from homes and houses and bringing stuff and having to almost start again. If the other parent is then equipped with knowledge of what’s going on, I guess it helps those transitions. 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (13:50): 

Yeah. Yeah. And it also takes the burden off of the child having to say, “Okay. This is what I need for the week ahead. I need this uniform on this day and that.” So if you’re able to communicate that, then I would say communicate it. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (14:02): 

That’s great. Do you have any other advice to help with those transitions? 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (14:06): 

Well, I think especially for teenagers, what I hear is that they like to have… And it’s difficult, I know, but they like to have two of everything. So they don’t want to go to one home without all of their… It might just be cream or things that they need or their school uniform and that sort of thing. So check in with them if they have everything that they need when they’re in your house or if there’s anything that they need to bring over with them. So really trying to have that focus on the children and what they need going in between. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (14:34): 

I’m wondering about resources. What supports or resources can parents use to help children through a separation period, if you have any that you would share? 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (14:44): 

Well, actually I think Emerging Minds have some great resources and I often direct parents towards that. And then there’s also Raising Children’s Network have some resources as well. And so I think those are some places you can go to and get. And then there’s also some parenting courses like Bringing Up Great Kids and Circle Security as well that talk about communicating and parenting post-separation. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (15:08): 

Thank you for sharing those. Alesha, how can parents support themselves through a separation, especially when you may need some extra supports? 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (15:17): 

I think the first thing is acknowledging that there’s been a huge change in your life. Often as parents, we are very focused on the children and trying to get them set up and settled and all of those things, but there’s been a huge change in your life. A relationship that you entered into has ended. So really acknowledging that there’s been a huge change for you. And often I ask parents, they can ask themselves, “How am I feeling and what do I need?” And really take, even if it’s just five minutes to really check in on themselves and what the answer might be to that because we can expect that there will be lots of feelings. There might be anger, there might be sadness, there might be regret, and there might be relief as well. So there’s a whole spectrum that parents can go through. So really checking in how they’re doing and checking in if they’re feeling overwhelmed or if they’re having a low mood. So it’s really important parents put that time aside and check in on themselves. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (16:11): 

And would you say there are any signs that parents should look out for to where they may need some extra support or to seek extra support or any resources you would point them towards? 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (16:23): 

Yeah, I think if parents feel like they’re struggling in the day-to-day of things and maybe they’re having that low mood, they’re feeling overly anxious, they might need to check in and have some extra supports, whether that’s counselling supports, whether that is having a conversation with close friends or family and seeing if they need to go maybe to their GP and get something like a mental health care plan. So really checking around their own mental health and what they’re needing. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (16:47): 

I really liked what you said about that you’ve kind of taken care of the child so much. And I think the focus can be so much on the child or the children and kind of getting them okay, that I think sometimes parents can forget to check in with themselves. So to give yourself that grace and that time to ask yourself those questions and that it’s okay to talk to someone or even just start the ball rolling by searching, reading some resources. 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (17:14): 

Yeah, absolutely. And we know that when we’re looked after and when we’re doing well, we parent in the way that we want to parent as well. So that’s really important. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (17:23): 

Absolutely. I wanted to talk about co-parenting. Co-parenting, again, with the best of intentions. And in the best scenarios or in the worst case scenarios can be tricky. So I was wondering, Alesha, what advice do you have if you’re struggling with the behaviours of your co-parent? 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (17:40): 

Well, I think I just wanted to say first of all that there’s often that hope of co-parenting isn’t there and the idea of that brilliant communication. And we know that that’s not always the case. And also if you’ve separated, you’ve separated for a reason. Often communication is a big part of that reason. So if you are really struggling with someone with your ex-partner within that, what I often say to parents is to limit their communication, putting some boundaries around the communication. So if it’s not regarding the children, they’re not having to respond to that. So really checking that communication’s only about children and letting themselves know that they are in charge of their own behaviours and of their own responses and that other parent’s in charge of their behaviours and their responses as well. Because often we can take on the responsibility for everyone. 

(18:25): 

So when someone is struggling to co-parent with someone, often I ask into what the relationship was like actually because that’s often the case. And sometimes we know that there’s domestic or family violence that’s happened. And we know that continues post-separation as well. So some of the things I advise is, like I said, limiting that communication. Possibly using parenting apps as well because they can sort of keep a record of the communication. And that might be useful if someone wants to go to family law courts, for example. And also if there’s child support payments going to Centrelink, there’s two options. You can organise it yourself or Centrelink can collect it. So that takes away any of that ambiguity of financial payments. Maybe they haven’t come through or they come through now and again. So that really limits the amount that you have to communicate with this other person. 

(19:18): 

And I encourage parents to think about what they can control in their own house, the routines they can put into place, the rituals they can put into place with their children as well. So focus on the things they can control. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (19:31): 

I really liked what you said about understanding Centrelink payments and also managing your own behaviour and setting up those boundaries and limiting communication. That you don’t have to constantly be communicating if that’s not a safe space. That you can limit that to what we mentioned earlier, the children focus, their schedule, their pickups, and that’s what you may need to do to look after yourself and keep that relationship in a way that can keep going and keep the children’s wellbeing at the forefront. I wanted to acknowledge that separating, it is tough and it is complex. And it also, maybe historically, it has been painted with a stigma on a negative light, whereas there is strength in that and there is strength in making that decision. And what you mentioned earlier is that you have separated for a reason. That separation has happened for a reason. So I wanted to ask how can parents focus on the strengths that they have and the decision that they have made to separate? 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (20:30): 

I think parents can focus on that strength by checking in around what’s going well. Often we have parents coming in of all the things that they’re worried about or things that aren’t going well. But if you take a moment and you think your children might be settled, they might be really loving the school, they’re going to have a good friendship group and really settled in the home that you now have. And also, I wonder how helpful it might be for them to look back. And it might be looking back on the last few months or the last few years of the relationship and check in, “How did I feel in that relationship? What was going through my mind? What sort of things was I experiencing?” And then look at, “Well, where are you now and what’s going on for you now? How are you feeling? What are some really good things that you get to do now that you couldn’t do before you get to enjoy?” 

(21:15): 

And that might be things like the parenting style that you get to put into place without there being any conflict around that. There might be routines that you want to put in place with the children, might be bedtime routines or other things, other rituals that you can share with the children as well. It might even be that you can decorate a space in your house or in your room the way that you want to decorate it and use it for what you want to use, maybe arts and crafts or whatever it might be. So really checking in with yourself around what’s changed, what’s going well. And there’s a real strength in that as well. And also checking how your children are going, because often children are doing really well and they can adapt too, so there’s a strength in looking back and checking where you’ve come to. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (21:57): 

We were just having a conversation the other day with a friend and they were reflecting that they had bought some furniture for their house and they were excited that this new furniture was arriving. We were talking about how great that is, that you’ve been able to make those decisions and decorate your house and your space the way that you want to. And that is a strength and that is so freeing in a way as well that you get to then make your environment your environment, you get to have the routines. And yeah, even the parenting style that may have been a conflict in your home, that’s what you set up and that’s what the children know to expect when they come into that space. 

(22:32): 

I wanted to ask about friends and family and members going through separation. I feel like I’ve had friends go through separations, going through separations, family members, and I never really know what to say or what to do, or I never really know that what I’m saying or doing is being helpful. Like, checking in, sending those text messages. Do you really want to type out the horrible thing that just happened? 

(22:56): 

I just wanted to ask, if someone is listening that may have a friend or family member going through separation with children involved, how best can they support them? 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (23:06): 

Yeah. Well, I really like your idea of checking in actually. And it doesn’t have to be sort of long back to forth text messages. It could be a phone call or it could be a, “Hey, do you want to catch up for a coffee or something like that.” I really think that lending a listening ear is important because parents often need a space where they can say, “This is what’s happening. This is what I’m going through. This is what I’m hearing from the other party.” But it’s really important with that listening ear that you’re holding that information as well. You need to be a safe space. So they might say some things that they may not really mean, they just want to vent, but in that moment they just need you to be that listening ear, so taking that on for them. 

(23:43): 

It might even be things like if you’re close to the family, maybe offering to look after the kids so that mom or dad can get a break. They might need to just go out to Coles or Woolworths and do a shop without the kids all over the trolley everywhere. There might be something small like that. But also you can also ask and just say, “Hey, I wanted to check in on you. I wasn’t quite sure what to say, but I wanted you to know that I’m here if you need me.” And they might let you know what they might need from you, “It might be great if you could do this” or, “It could be great. I would really love this” so just being open to hearing from them. I think a lot of parents would appreciate just being checked in on and knowing that someone is there thinking of them. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (24:23): 

That’s great. I really love that you offered practical things that you can do bring to look after the children. I think some people offer support in things that they can physically do. And then some people like to offer support and being that ear that the person can talk to, but also holding that for them and holding that space. It’s not just asking the questions and then not doing much with it or sharing that information, knowing that that is a safe space between you and that person going through that. You want to be that support unit for that person going through that. And it’s hard sometimes to know the balance. 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (24:56): 

Yeah, it is difficult to know. Yeah. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (24:59): 

Alesha, I wanted to ask you if you could leave parents who are going through a separation with one or two things to remember from our conversation today, what would they be? 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (25:10): 

One or two things. I think I feel like parents to take away that they play a huge role in their children’s. Lives and even the fact that they listen into this podcast mean that they showed love and care and consideration and all those things for their children and the family unit. I just want them to know that they can build a life that they had hoped for with their children, whether that’s around the routines of parenting, things that they want to instill the values and those morals they want to instill in the children. Just want them to know that they can also look around them and check and see what’s going really well. 

(25:46): 

I really encourage parents to do that because there’s always something that’s going well. Sometimes we can look for the really hard things and they can be pretty big at times. But whether your children have come home and maybe they’re doing really well in their reading or maybe they’ve made a new friend or maybe they really like that they can walk home instead of driving to school. Those really small things. It might be your teens sitting in the car and playing their music for you and sharing something with you. So those real small day-to-day connections, just look for them and cherish them. That’s what I’ve want to leave with parents. 

Nadia Rossi (Host) (26:19): 

Oh, thank you so much. I love that you said those small connections. And it can be overwhelming sometimes so thank you for breaking it down for us and offering those practical things that parents can do and even those small things that people supporting them can do. Thank you so much for joining us today. 

Alesha Akintoye (Guest) (26:35): 

That’s okay. It’s my pleasure. 

Narrator (26:39): 

Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au/families for a wide range of free information and resources. To help support child and family mental health, Emerging Minds leads the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health. The centre is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.