Transcript for
Supporting the mental health of children who stutter – part two

Mitchell (00:00): The main thing is to make sure that it’s a safe space, where they have as much time as they need to speak. That sounds real easy to provide a space where they can take as much time as they need to speak. I understand in a clinic environment with the pressures of time and all these things, but if you just take that time to provide that space and then anyone who has a stutter, be they adult or child, but then especially if they’re a child and stuff, they will see that they are seen and they’re going to be heard. I think that is so important.

Narrator (00:47):

Welcome to The Emerging Minds podcast.

Nicole Rollbusch (00:53):

Hi. Your with Nicole Rollbusch. On today’s episode, I’m joined again by Rich Stephens, President of the Stuttering Association for the Young Australia, or SAY Australia, and Mitchell, who’s been involved with SAY Australia for the last four years, first as a participant and now as a mentor to other children and young people. Both Rich and Mitchell have a stutter and they’ve joined us again to talk more about what it’s like growing up with a stutter, how it can impact children’s mental health, and what people can do to best support children who have a stutter.

(01:24):

Thank you both for joining me again to continue this conversation. Now, Rich, you did touch on this a little bit before but I’m really interested from both of you about the language and labels that might be around people who have a stutter, and also some of the things that people do that are actually really unhelpful.

Mitchell (01:50):

Yeah, probably the worse thing is you’re trying to have a conversation with new people or close ones to and you’re trying to get the word out, but you can’t and they try to finish your word or sentence. That’s a big no no, but I’ve always had in school people walk off, people not pay attention, so I just don’t really care for those people who don’t really want to respect me. But a good thing to do is if you even have a person who stutter or anything and they’re trying to talk to you, just listen to them, just to let them talk. Be nice, be friendly.

Rich Stephens (03:02):

Yeah. I remember as a kid, I’d hear a lot of description of my daughter was bad, worse, I needed to be fixed. There’s lots of negative connotations with that and stuff. If I’m talking and it’s described as bad, and then obviously I’m going to take that and I’m going to think, okay, so if I’m talking now and if I have a stutter and I know it’s bad, then I know I need to stop that. I know if I do that, it’s not accepted around me and stuff, so I have to stop that or else I’m bad. It’s a weird thing to say, but if you’re a child, these things stick. These things really, really stick.

(04:01):

Those are a couple of examples. I think labelling, I think I was always thought of as anxious, anxieties is not a cause. It can exacerbate. I was never shy though, but that’s a false impression you get because I wasn’t shy. I just wanted to speak but didn’t want to speak as well because I didn’t know what the reaction was going to be from other people. There’s you hear a lot, I heard a lot as well as a kid, “Oh, it’s fine. You’ll grow out of it.”

(04:35):

Even if you think of that, and I know I’m being a bit pedantic here, but if I continue with a stutter, does that mean I’ve not grown up then? I know it’s a pedantic thing, but words and language are just so important at such an early age. I never use, when I talk about mine, I just say “Strong” or “Not as strong” with the reference to my stuttering and stuff. I know everybody is different, but I think anything which you can say, because as soon as it comes out of your mouth, it can never come back. I think as kids, those things stick. I think anything which I believe, which has a negative and connotation, we really need to stop really, because those things will just be embedded in the child.

Nicole Rollbusch (05:33):

Yeah, definitely. I think that hearing that lived experience is so important for language and attitudes to change and just how powerful those things can be, in terms of the meaning that you make from your interactions with people, whether it’s outright saying “Bad” or something like that, or the finishing of sentences or words or just walking away and what that sense making is from that. Especially like you say when you’re a really young kid and you don’t know what to make sense of. Yeah, really important side of things, language and attitudes. I wanted to ask you Rich, what the current treatment options are around stuttering.

Rich Stephens (06:15):

Yeah, sure. I think from an early age what SLPs will tend to do is work with their parents, in terms of the home environment and stuff and in terms of how they communicate to their child. They will look at just other pressures in the home environment and stuff. Is there protected time where communication can happen? There’s sometimes as well where the parents are trained by an SLP to deliver the programme at home. You’ve got a range of other programmes, where they tend to try to work on a speech to modify the speech, to do the rhythmic approach. There’s lots of tricks out there which might have been used in the past, which I don’t think you use now.

(07:21):

There’s lots of fluency inducing techniques. If you talk to AB with a word or the syllable timed, that can invoke a fluency. There’s the modification of speech, which at times it’s always a bit of a trade-off, especially when you get a bit older as well. There’s the cognitive behavioural therapy, which is working on thoughts and feelings around your relationship with having a stutter. There’s breathing techniques, the coastal breathing, where you talk on your out breath.

(08:16): There’s lots out there. Yeah, I would always advise anyone who’s on the lookout for any therapy or groups or organisations just to research it, and to have a look to at the evidence, how it was done, who did it, and to make the choice that you were comfortable with and happy with. I also think as well, I think SLPs have a responsibility now to not just to prescribe a single thing to families and to kids who come in and stuff. I think if I was an SLP now, I don’t think I’d be spending the first week or two or three weeks prescribing a therapy and stuff. I’d let the family or the child or the adult tell their story, tell their story, and provide them with the evidence base, provide them with what is out there and for them to make an informed choice.

Nicole Rollbusch (09:26): Mitch, what about for you and your experience of seeing a speech pathologist? Can you tell us a little bit about the types of treatment that you’ve experienced and what it was like to go through those processes with your speech?

Mitchell (09:40): Yes, in primary schools, same as Rich, I’ve got a evident memory of it, so probably in grade one to grade four, I did speak in primary school. That was just talking to some speech pathologists that they actually had at the school. He was awesome for me through those times, I just like talking to someone without being walked off on or anything like that. What I did was just play games, that’s a memory I’ve got, just playing games and just sitting down and having a chat with her. Then my mum was finding it really hard to try and find a speech pathologist, because something along the lines of I’m pretty sure past the age of 13 or 14, it’s hard for all speech pathologists don’t do kids over a certain age, so I’m pretty sure it’s either 13 or 14 maybe if I’m right. Yeah, Mom was always on the phone, emailing speech pathologist clinics, trying to call because at this time in high school I wanted my stutter to be fixed because I was just at that low point.

(11:47): Just trying to get it fixed, trying to get it away pretty much. We ended up finding one in Box Hill when I was 14 or 15. I did that for two years of just constant smooth speech, just trying to talk smooth, or be true and without stuttering at all. I did that for about two years. Then also he wanted me to try and take the smooth speech to the real world, to footy, to school, talking to my parents and extended family members. Then, I just found that really exhausting and overwhelming.

(12:47): I would always come home completely tired from school and just talking with my mates, just trying to talk smoothly. Then even after those school hours, as soon as I’d go home, I would just go in my room and constantly read books, articles, just trying to be as smooth as I could be. But yeah, that was just too exhausting. I would always go to bed at 6:00 PM, wake up for school and be completely tired. That was a really draining, so when I was 16, I told my parents. I went , “No, I can’t keep doing this, because it’s too much.”

Nicole Rollbusch (13:50): Yeah, I think that’s something that a lot of people wouldn’t think about, is just how tiring it can be to have to think about speaking.

Mitchell (14:06): Yeah, because it’s not really something people think about how exhausting it is. I just remember my grandparents always trying to tell me and find all these articles on smooth speech, they mean well and all. I was always like, oh, I can’t keep finding new ways to talk and that because it’s just too tiring.

Nicole Rollbusch (14:40): Yeah, yeah. You’ve touched on a couple of things already Mitch, but what are some of the helpful things that people around you have been able to do for you?

Mitchell (14:49): Yes, just in my grandparents are there trying to find articles and all that, that was a sign of yeah, they’re really kind and loving and supportive. Then my parents and my sister have been awesome and amazing. I can’t thank them enough for how helpful they’ve been, because meeting new people in social situations can’t get one name out, so they know. We have this for example, if we have hadn’t met before and then you introduce yourself, then I try to introduce myself, I would look to them and then they would tell me their name for me. Yeah, that’s really good. Then, yeah, I can’t in the top of my head how much other things they’ve done to help me because it’s been a lot. At school as well, my mates, even and at school with roll calls trying to say “I’m here”, I would always get blocks or I couldn’t even say “I’m here” to mark me present.

(16:33): So I would ask them to say, “Can you please just say ‘I’m here'”? Then they’ll be like, “Yeah, sure”. That was really awesome for me, even and teachers as well, like my English teachers, because we always had to do as presentations in high school and whatnot, because that’s our criteria that you have to pass, being able to presentate and talk. All of my English teachers were awesome in the space where I don’t have to talking in front of the kids, I could do it at all lunchtime, so that was awesome. If I wanted to, because I’m pretty sure in year nine or year ten, I had to have at least four or five kids in my class be there, so I had a few in my friends just sit in the room, so then they could tick me off. Yeah, thank God I didn’t have to talk as much in front of the classroom. But yeah, that’s all what I had to go through to pass school.

Nicole Rollbusch (18:13): Rich, I think you mentioned a bit of this in your introduction, but I’m really interested in hearing a bit more about what SAY Australia brings to children and young people who stutter, particularly about the impact that your programme can have on their wellbeing.

Rich Stephens (18:28): Yeah, we provide an adjunct, it’s a pure adjunct. It’s not a replacement for any therapy that is constantly ongoing for any young people who comes into our world. The essence of what we provide is a safe space, where the kids and teens who stutter can just come exactly how they are. The only ask is that we ask them to bring them, and that is the only ask. We provide a space which is a lot of love, a lot of empathy, a lot of understanding, acceptance, lots of listening, which I think is key. We do so in an environment which is fun, and they can show their uniqueness in this space, where they won’t be bullied, they won’t be told to speak a certain way, they won’t be told that they have to accept their stutter as well. But what they will see is that they are seen and heard and loved for exactly how they are and they are allowed to be kids.

(19:43): I think that is the beauty of what we try and do and stuff. We just want to provide a space where they can be kids. Over the course of 9 weeks or 10 weeks, they get to work in small groups, and they create a unique piece. If that’s a song or a spoken word or a play. Then at the end, if they want to share what they have created and they are totally in charge of what they create, and then at the end of the programme, they get a chance if they want to share their piece in front of an audience filled with family and friends, in an auditorium or a theatre space, or if we do it online as well because we do this in a state, in the Zoom sphere as I like to call it. We will do a show in the Zoom sphere as well, but when they share, they have as much time as they want. Everyone is just there not concerned about how they speak, but just really interested in what they have to say.

(20:42): We do that all year round and we do the social hangs every month. All of those things are free. Our programming is free, the social hangs are free. The only thing that we do charge for, but we try and help families as much as possible obviously is we do a summer camp here in Victoria, up in Creswick. Not a fluency camp, not an acceptance camp, just a camp. It’s really special. There’s a magical essence, a magical time that we have when we are with our community for four or five days, and we get to know each other a lot in the camp environment.

(21:24): We do all these hangs and it’s great, but the essence and the core of it is just providing that safe space for kids and teens who stutter to just come to be themselves, to meet other kids and teens who stutter. For a lot of the kids, it’s the first time when they come into our space that they’ve met anyone else who has a stutter. Hopefully, building on their confidence and the self-esteem, and for them to see that, yes, as a person who has a stutter, you can do all these things in life and you can be an effective communicator as a person who stutters. Yeah, as I shared, as I said, we’re not a replacement for any therapy where you’re purely an adjunct to coexist.

Nicole Rollbusch (22:17): I love the simplicity of that message, of just be yourself in this space. Mitch, I wanted to ask you about your experience of SAY Australia. Tell us a bit about that and maybe what’s been the best part of it?

Mitchell (22:37): Every single time when I think of SAY Australia, I always think of my very first day being anxious, being scared, being too frightened to seeing Rich. My first day, me and my family arrived and I was sitting on Lucas’s seat, and then as soon as I heard the door open, I absolutely bolted to the toilet. I was like, no, I’m not doing with this at all. My youngest sister, she walked over to where I was and then she helped me calm down a bit. As soon as I walked in, I saw all of the lovely volunteers there, also them some smiles and energy and then ever since then I’ve not looked back. It’s just a cool place where you could be yourself without being judged by anyone, not being interrupted, it’s just always a friendly environment. There’s never been any issues at all. It’s just always just amazing. It’s awesome to be a part of.

Rich Stephens (24:22): I remember that day well, I remember that day and it was the first ever programme that we did. I remember when you were nervous and when you went to the toilet for a bit and then you come in and I didn’t know if you were going to stay. Then we played a game and you did this great share with your dad and stuff and had a big embrace and then we took a break, because it was a very emotive. It was not that kind of game, and you just shared this beautiful share with your dad, and then we took a break. I didn’t know if you were going to come back and you stayed for that day. It’s just been beautiful ever since.

(24:57): It’s like I say, in terms of Mitchell, is he’s a person who’s been through the programmes, he’s been through the programmes. He came to our first one, he graduated as an alumni and he’s come back as a mentor. He was a bunk counsellor to the youngest boys, which is always a hard age group and especially at your age and stuff and there’s a maturity in that and just a grace and just a care and you’ve shown. I think what kind of better story for someone who’s been through it? For someone who’s been through our programmes, because I lead the organisation or the stuff have I’ve been involved, but there’s no one who’s been through it.

(25:39): Your story, your insight is so unique. As well, we ask a lot of our kids, in terms of we ask them to take a risk, as in to get on stage as well. I also ask that of the staff as well, because we never asked the kids to do anything that we are not, that we don’t and one volunteer for as well. A couple of days ago, and you were on the stage in a packed auditorium with a tambourine and stuff as a backup singer, and you volunteered to do that. Just a number of things as well on camp. I think that is, again, it’s the beauty of what our space is. It’s a healing thing for both of us as well, as people who stutter to be around those kids, but to be around the staff as well, our team.

(26:31): We have a number of our team who do have a stutter who are adults, and we have a number of people who don’t, who are allies, who give us as much time as we need as well. That’s important for the kids to see, because if the kids only came to a space where it was led by adults who stutter, it’s great still. But I’d say in our space, you’d expect to have as much time to start a tagline and stuff like that, but when there’s people in there who don’t have a stutter as well, who maybe they have never experienced in life in the sense of, oh, for people who are fluent, don’t give me time. That’s very important and it’s powerful to see as well. Yeah, we ask the kids to take a risk and the staff as well. As I said, it’s a healing thing, a rejuvenation for all of us, and it’s a special place.

Nicole Rollbusch (27:29): Yeah, it sounds like it. For you, Mitchell, what’s been one of the favourite things that you’ve done? Rich mentioned you’ve been a backup singer with a tambourine. What’s been your most favourite thing?

Mitchell (27:44): Oh, well, there’s too many to choose, but well, a little bit a while ago, probably two or three years ago, Rich was telling me about this idea of camp and all that and I was really excited by it because in one of the presentation nights, we saw this one maybe called My Beautiful Stutter. It was about this camp in America with these kids who stutter and all the volunteers over there and just made a movie about their journeys, their experience, and then the camp as well. As soon as Rich said, made that idea about the possibility of camp and then lent us that six months ago, it come to reality, it was just an amazing feeling. It will be in all of our hearts and in our memories for many years to come. Yeah, that’s probably my favourite thing.

Nicole Rollbusch (29:21): Yeah, I love that. I wanted to ask you Rich, about the advice that you might give to a practitioner who isn’t a speech pathologist, who may have a child who stutters come to them for whatever reason? Not specifically around the stuttering. What would you give them if a child with a stutter came to this service?

Rich Stephens (29:46): I think the main thing is to make sure that it’s a safe space, where they have as much time as they need to speak. That sounds really easy to provide a space where they can take as much time as they need to speak. I understand in a clinic environment with the pressures of time and all these things, but if you just take that time to provide that space, and then anyone who has a stutter, be they adult or child, but then especially if they’re a child and stuff, they will see that they are seen and they’re going to be heard. I think that is so important. It’s very easy to interject and to interrupt and to finish off a sentence, because you might see your child who is really finding it hard to say what they want to say.

(30:50): Inside of us, all we want to do is help that moment. We want to interject and we want to try and end a sentence if a child is finding it hard. But I always give an example of this. A child might be asking for a pen and you’re convinced it’s a blue pen. You see them and they’re getting stuck on “pen”, and afterwards there’s a colour, but they can’t get that far at the moment. You see it and you hear it, and you just want to help, so you complete the sentence and you give them the blue pen, but they might want the red pen. I think it’s a simple thing to say, but that child might accept the blue pen, because it’s easier, because it’s easier. They’re like, “Well, I was interrupted then and I was interjected.”

(31:45): Even if they were going to say the blue pen, even in that moment, you might think that you were helping, there’s more power, there’s more of a beneficial act, there’s more of a kindful act is if you just take that inside, that the yearning to interject and just hold it and just hold it and just keep it. Because 99% of the time, I’m not going to say every single time, because every person is different, but 99% of the time, if you do that, if you just provide that space where you listen and you listen and you listen.

(32:36): There might be a bit of silencing for a bit, but I’m telling you right now, if you do that, you will make that person’s day and you will make them feel safe and you will hear more and you will hear more from that person. They will share more. I think the alternative is that they won’t. For anyone who’s engaging with anyone who stutters but especially anyone in health, we want the people who walk through that door who give us a lot of faith and a lot of trust and stuff, that we are going to care for them. We just really need to do everything that we can for them to share their voice and their story and their thoughts and their feelings.

Nicole Rollbusch (33:31): Yeah, so important. What about for you, Mitch? What would you tell people who work with kids about things they can do that are helpful?

Mitchell (33:42): Yeah, just listen to what they have to say. That’s the most important thing, that’s what I think and believe. So if you just keep listening, paying attention, keep asking questions about what they’re trying to say, that just opens the doors for them to be more calm or not anxious about talking to a person who they’re trying to have a conversation with. Because I know from by myself speaking here right now, I was anxious so much talking about this, but now going through all of the questions and that, you guys have been really good in just listening to what we have to say, and now I’m just calm. I can just talk without being judged or anything. Yeah, just listen to what they have to say really.

Nicole Rollbusch (35:20): Yeah, I’m glad you’ve felt comfortable sharing your experience because it’s been a pleasure listening to it. I wonder what you would say to other kids who are growing up with a stutter, what advice would you give them?

Mitchell (35:33): Just be your authentic self, that’s all what I had to say. Just be who you are. Just if people don’t have the time to talk to you or listen to what you have to say, just don’t associate with those people who don’t care for what you have to say or anything. Just try and find people who are really nice and actually want to get to know who you are and then just work from there.

Nicole Rollbusch (36:30): Yeah, that’s good advice. We’ve come to the end of our time together, but is there anything either of you would like to add before we go?

Rich Stephens (36:41): Oh, I always like to end on just an easy thing really and stuff. Look, if there’s a take home after this and stuff, I think the easiest, the soundbite to take away is the only difference between people who stutter and people who don’t is that for people who stutter when they speak, it just takes them a little bit longer to say the words that they want to say. And that’s it, and that is it. It’s just about time. It’s just about space, and it’s about patience and that is the only difference in communication and stuff.

(37:34): If it’s today or tomorrow or in a week’s time or a month’s time, if anybody comes into your world who has a stutter, if you remember it and all you need to know is that I just need to give time and space for this person, you’ll really make their day because I know when I didn’t get that, and then when I did get that, that was the difference between having a terrible day and thinking about it for days and days on end against the opposite of just walking away and just thinking that was a cool engagement and stuff, and just walking on and going on with life and with a smile on my face.

Nicole Rollbusch (38:19): Well, Rich and Mitchell, it’s been a real pleasure to have you here today. I’ve learned a lot, so thank you for sharing your experiences with me. I really appreciate it.

Rich Stephens (38:32): It’s been a pleasure. Yeah, we felt heard, so thank you.

Nicole Rollbusch (38:37): Thank you.

Rich Stephens (38:38): It’s been awesome.

Mitchell (38:39): Yeah, thank you very much for sharing about how Rich and myself have got to say and thank you for letting us be heard.

Nicole Rollbusch (39:00): My pleasure. Thank you.

Narrator (39:06): Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au to access a range of resources to assist your practise. Brought to you by the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health, led by Emerging Minds. The National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.