Transcript for
Tricky topics: Masculinity and raising boys to be good men

Narrator (00:02): 

Welcome to the Emerging Minds Families Podcast. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (00:05): 

Hi, I’m Alicia Ranford and you’re listening to an Emerging Minds Families Podcast. Before we start today’s episode, we would like to pay respect to the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains. We also pay respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, their ancestors and elders past, present and emerging from the different First Nations across Australia. 

(00:32): 

In this episode, we are going to be talking about navigating pornography and sexualized media content with children and young people. If you have little ears listening, you might want to listen another time or, if you feel this topic may bring up difficult feelings for you, perhaps give this week a miss and join us next fortnight or you can find resources for support in our show notes. 

(00:55): 

Welcome to episode two of our conversation with Dan Principe who is a very passionate youth advocate and educator. If you missed last fortnight, I highly recommend you go back and take a listen, Dan gave us some amazing insights in how to navigate the landscape of pornography with our young people and really help to unpack the difficulties of navigating this space with them. This week, we’re going to pick up where we left off as well as delving into masculinity and how we can support our young boys to grow into wonderful young men. And I wanted to start by asking, Dan, do you ever hear any surprising attitudes from parents related to pornography use as you travel around Australia presenting on these topics? 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (01:36): 

What’s hard is the people who are most proactive who rock up who you engage with who are the switched-on ones so it’s a bias. So, I’m engaging with a lot of educators, parents, community members who are switched on, realise this is a challenge, we need to do something about it and are really engaged in those conversations. So, not so much, I don’t get much of that but, again, that is the bias of the catchment of those who clearly realise this is an issue and want to do something about it so that’s going to filter out the people who don’t respond positively to either of those options. 

(02:03): 

But yeah, not so much, to be honest, I think it’s pretty hard to argue with the impacts and my biggest shift in proof of this, other than the empirical evidence, and it’s not to say that it’s 100% there, chase the money trail if you want to actually get to the bottom of some of it. But five years ago in the media, it’s like, “Dan, you’re making the case that pornography is harmful to young people,” can’t believe we had to make that case but you’d have to back it up with here’s the Australian Institute of Family Studies report, this is what Our Watch has got to say, this is what the Children’s Commission has got and you’d be ready to go with all of your research. Whereas, now it’s more like, “Yeah, we know this is impacting young people.” Police are seeing it, psychologists are seeing it, parents are seeing it, teachers are seeing it in sexualized language, it’s an obvious manifestation of this and it’s, well, what are we going to do about is now what we get asked, what are we going to do about this phenomenon. 

(02:49): 

So that’s been a pleasant surprise. There’s less having to make the case, there is still a huge part of society that I think is very uncomfortable about this. And I think, in Australian culture, we banter about a lot of things and one of them is sex or sexuality and what I want to just normalise is can we have some mature conversations about this. Surely, we can do that. I have a rule of thumb, if you’re not mature enough to talk about this, you’re probably not ready enough to be engaged in this. And so, that’s where I take this and ask year nine boys what’s missing from pornography and their answers are incredible. Do you want to hear what they’ve got to say? 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (03:24): 

I would love to hear what they’ve got to say. 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (03:26): 

Yeah. So, it all started, I asked the older boys this to get them critically thinking assessing this. And then one day I was just having such a terrific session, I was in regional Queensland and I whispered into the Head of Wellbeing there, I said, “These boys are just lapping up everything.” We unpacked stereotypes, coercive control, year nine boys, green flags, red flags in relationships, power, gender, all this stuff and they’re engaged. And yeah, sometimes it can be performative that they might know the right answers to give you but, hey, they’re still saying that in front of their mates, I still take that as a win. And I said to the Head, I’ve got to give him something more, they’re just doing such a good job and he agreed. And I said, “Look, I’m going to ask them this question, I’m just going to put it up on the projector,” and I said, “Boys, off you go in your small groups.” Hundred and 20 boys, this hall is roaring with energy, it’s this has either going really well or really bad, we’ll find out in a few moments. 

(04:10): 

And I said, “Boys, as you know, no one’s pressured to ever share anything today but, if you want to answer like this and speak and tell us what’s missing from porn, come to the front,” 15 boys ran to the front ready to go. And in front of their mates, they took different turns and they said this in front of 120 other boys. It doesn’t show consent, doesn’t show intimacy, emotional connection, romance, love, communication. What else they enjoy outside the bedroom? Do they actually have a relationship? Do they care for each other? 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (04:41): 

Isn’t that beautiful? 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (04:43): 

Incredible that you would have teenage boys, year nines, in front of their mates saying that love, maybe intimacy, emotional connection should have something to do with this significant act, incredible. So, I don’t doubt their ability to share their insights and empathy, it’s the courage to live that out when there’s so much pressure, especially in boys and this is fundamental to my work, it’s not just talking about pornography but the pressures on boys to conform to this callous, rigid, uncaring vision of masculinity. That’s not who they truly are but who they very much feel pressured to perform for their mates and for broader social expectations. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (05:19): 

And that leads us nicely into thinking about how we can raise good men. There are a lot of wonderful men out there. 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (05:28): 

Absolutely. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (05:29): 

There’s a lot in the media about violence against women, what are the keys to raising good boys? 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (05:35): 

How long you got? Can we completely- 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (05:38): 

How long can you stay awake for? 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (05:39): 

Forever once you get me talking about this. Can we reorder society around what actually matters most, integrating the best of the old with where we need to be in a new world? I think we’ve lost sight of things as much of things have advanced but there’s some old wisdom that we’ve forsaken especially when it comes to boys and I don’t know if that’s serving us. I’m not saying let’s go back to the 1950s, the 1550s, I’m just saying things that were always associated with masculinity like virtue is neglected and to all of our detriment. Once upon a time, if you read how, not saying all men, but how men regarded one another and what was expected of them in terms of decency, hence, we have a word gentleman. And this isn’t again saying let’s hark back to the olden days and I don’t want to view it through rose-tinted glasses because there’s awful, awful things that we’ve needed to fight for and recalibrate in our culture and we’re still doing that. 

(06:27): 

But yeah, I think today it seems like a race to the bottom. Boys are not being pressured by social norms to conform to being a gentleman, to being decent, to having a sense of how to act in such situations, we’re seeing a failure to launch, we’re seeing an increased infantilization of boys, we’re seeing boys falling so far behind in secondary and tertiary education, we’re seeing this across the western world. It’s not about who’s winning out of boys, it’s not about that but they’re checking out of leadership taking on responsibility, that should alarm all of us. And people are writing about this and it’s why is that, what has shifted and it can be so easy to view this as this zero-sum game of, well, if boys succeed and girls aren’t biassed, it’s not that, there’s lots of room at the table here. But clearly we fail to translate a message for boys about what’s worth aspiring to in terms of who they are and who they’re becoming. 

(07:16): 

And I think when you remove virtue, traditionally known as things like love and courage and respect and honour and decency, it’s, well, who should I be? And right now, there are some pretty significant bad faith actors who get a lot of attention for reinforcing the very worst traits that we want to see in young men. This performative toughness, this callousness preying on their insecurities and I think one of the biggest things, and I’m not an expert to speak on this but I do read about it and I contemplate it often in my summer breaks, is rites of passage. We’ve got a lot to learn from previous generations and from, of course, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander brothers and sisters in this space, how their cultures initiate boys and what that looks like and going through that and how then you relate to yourself and other people relate to you. We don’t have those markers and here in Australia boys will default to drinking, fighting, doing stupid things and having sex to prove that they’re a man amongst some other unhelpful traits as well. 

(08:13): 

And I think that’s something that we have to work out and reimagine for our context. We’re not going back to pre-industrial revolution but what does that look like? And of course, because of the industrial revolution, men, uncles, grandfathers were then going off into offices and factories and spending less time in the lives of young men, that’s been a huge shift that we’ve not really considered. Unless you’re a sailor, a military man, you had a shop, you worked in a farm you lived and men were involved more in home life. I’m not saying always but they were and I’m not saying it was perfect either but that has been a huge structural shift for young men, huge. In a ways that I think we just forget because we just know our context, we know our norm, we’re all goldfish in our bowl. And so, when I think about that and how radical a shift that’s actually been, what I see as a great trend is men being far more involved now this generation in the home life and in child raising. 

(09:07): 

I think that’s one of the more positive shifts and so much more in that needs to be done and encouraged through structure, policy, workplace arrangements, how we even just understand our gender roles and not feeling insecure about maybe saying, “Hey, I’m a dad, I want to work three days a week because I want to spend more time with my kids,” how wonderful. And so, yeah, there’s more to be done culturally there but I see the effects of that with boys who are just so desperate for male validation. And if we don’t initiate them, if we don’t give them opportunities to be challenged and encouraged and have opportunities to grow, not just what they think and can pass a test but who they are because we neglect that, we’re so interested in the academic, we’re not interested in formation of character and that’s all of us have been affected by that. 

(09:51): 

And so, if we don’t give them these opportunities, they’re going to look to other uninitiated boys to prove that they’re a real man, a tough guy and by doing stupid things that are going to impress their mates to get a round of applause. The reality is we will all become like the people whose opinions matter most to us. Whoever we’re seeking validation from, that is who we’re going to become more like in terms of their values and their beliefs. And so, we owe it to boys to create better pathways, to celebrate other elements of what it is to be a man. Now, don’t hear me in a poor light here, I’m not saying we need to celebrate and erect statues for basic human decency but I’ve just asked three groups of boys today, “Tell me, boys, have you had people actually pay you a sincere compliment where they notice and encourage something about your character versus how much trolling, banter, tearing down? What’s the ratio?” A hundred to one, 200 to one, never. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (10:46): 

That’s really heartbreaking, isn’t it? 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (10:48): 

Had a year 12 just last week saying to me, “I don’t know what my strengths are.” I’m not judging him but I’m like, “How sad that no one has helped you or seen that, seen the good, the gold in you and called that out,” and said, “Oh, do you know you’re brilliant at that? Do you know how you live with integrity, how you do this, how you do this diligently?” I think how sad. Because if we don’t actually have a healthy sense of self that’s anchored in reality, not fake affirmations and fluff but actually someone seeing who you for truly are and nurturing the good in you, yeah, you’re just so prone to be insecure and played by everyone around you and that’s my worry for boys. And so, we actually need to build them up with grounded confidence. I’m not worried about arrogance, I’m worried about the insecurity that masks as this false bravado and causes chaos everywhere it goes. We actually want boys to be grounded, to know who they are so they’re not so swayed by culture, by the pack that they can actually stand up for themselves when peer pressure s swirls around them. 

(11:46): 

And so, yeah, when they’re not actually being praised for the decent things that they do do well, that worries me and I that for all young people. I want girls to be so secure in themselves so they’re not preyed on by the culture that is absolutely stripping them and coming after them, there’s so much to be said about that. It’s tragic, it’s heartbreaking. And so, yeah, for boys, helping them identify their strengths, what are you good at. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (12:09): 

And their values. What they value in life, what type of human being do they want to be. 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (12:15): 

Totally. And I tell them, I said, “I’m not going to do this because it sounds weird but, if I followed you for a day, I’d work out what you valued by what you celebrate, what stories you tell and who your heroes are. It’ll give me an indication of your frame of reference in life and what would I find?” And I encourage them, reflect on that. How would you answer that question? Who are your heroes, what do you celebrate and what stories do you tell because it’ll tell you a lot about you. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (12:39): 

And so, for younger children, what can parents do to help kids know their strengths? And I know that sounds like a silly question but what things can parents say to their kids to reinforce their strengths? 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (12:51): 

I think not praising, especially girls, but all young people for how they look and their cuteness. Of course, they need to hear that like, “You’re beautiful,” but with girls your beauty is beyond the looks. Just like when boys say we should be strong, I’m like, “Yeah, are we talking about strength of character? Because how much you bench press isn’t going to get it done through life, that’s not going to help you in 99.99% of life right now. It’s do you have strength of character? Who are you as a human?” But I think noticing it and then giving them opportunities for it, knowing that that’s what, for me, it is to nurture them is to give them opportunities to discover their strengths. I’m not musically inclined, okay. I can’t sing, I’m not really that good with my hands, my sister got all that talent as in she’s so good at building, fixing things and, back to the stereotypes, she’ll own more power tools from Bunnings than I ever will. 

(13:37): 

I love cooking, I love reading, I learned quickly that I like people and I feel like that’s my strength and had to learn to cultivate that and also learn things to be good at that so that I was competent in that. And so, yeah, I think just helping young people have opportunities to do different things and to identify their strengths in that both in terms of their character because we all got different character. Some of us are patient, some of us are kind, some of us are courageous, some of us got great leadership, some people are really caring, really thoughtful, really considerate and helping them to see that and helping them to nurture areas where they could actually grow in. And so, yeah, I think just noticing that and giving them opportunities for it. I think, yeah, we maybe worry that our kids are going to get a big head, I’m more worried if that’s because they’re staring at this thing too much and taking too many selfies. 

(14:25): 

That’s more what I’m worried about not because we’ve actually noticed the good in them and nurtured that and then given them opportunities to continue nurturing that because that’s grounded, there’s substance to that. Their selfie stuff, that’s not going to get it done when life comes at us, that’s not going to really give us the reserves that we need because 500 people liked my new profile picture. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (14:47): 

And the digitalized world that we’ve spoken so much about today, that feeds into all of those insecurities, doesn’t it? It feeds into, for young boys and girls, is changing the way their images are by using- 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (14:59): 

Filters, AI, all of it. It’s a huge reality young boys navigating that. This generation sees more of other people’s anatomy than ever before just because they’ve got phones. And I’m not just talking pornographic, I’m just mean all of it, they’re just bombarded with it nonstop. I deleted all my socials for a few years because I was one of those weirdos working in media politics who had two phones and I was like, “My head is cooked.” Deleted all, went back on it and my homepage on Instagram was just girls in bikinis, that’s just what the algorithm kept serving me. And that’s what it serves these young people whether they’ve looked for it or not and it keeps showing them these idealised lifestyles, idealised bodies that are fake and then these young people get more discouraged when they compare it to their own. Even though it’s you are 14, you can’t have that man’s body, you can’t have his vision of success, that’s probably fake but that’s where I feel it’s so unfair for them. 

(15:50): 

And I hear this a lot from parents is these unrealistic expectations. When I ask parents a question in my talk, straight up front I usually ask them, “What are you worried about? What are some of the bigger challenges?” and they say these unrealistic expectations of success that young people just can’t measure up to because they just see the 30-second snapshot reel and no idea of whether that’s true but also what is the hard work, the diligence, the sacrifice that’s gone on in the background whether it’s any pursuit, creative, athletic, academic, what’s gone on to get to that point. So, that is a huge challenge, not just aesthetically, but, yeah, for life success meaning all these sorts of things, a nonstop FOMO, fear of missing out. Because back in the day, we probably went to parties and we had no idea that we were missing out if there were parties going on as well, whereas, it’s all broadcast for them, it’s all broadcast for them. 

(16:39): 

So, yeah, it’s tapping in, it’s not making them feel good about themselves. There’s research out there that says, for girls especially, I think 10, 15 minutes of scrolling and their mood drops. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (16:48): 

Wow, that’s not long at all, is it? And it’s so fast and quick and their brains don’t have downtime, do they? And that’s a whole nother topic. 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (16:54): 

And just to critically think through it. They’re not going, “Oh, is this a fake image? Is this altered?” you’re just seeing something that’s an idealised version of it and it’s changing and it’s a movable feast. And that’s where I think we have to take back to first principles and what are we going to ground them in and encourage them in because culture will change, especially for girls. And I know I’m not here to talk about this but I talk about it with all young people, boys and girls, it’s beauty standards will change. When I was in high school, there’s pressure for girls to be heroine chic, stick thin, horrific. Now what is it? Oh, it’s curvy and athletic and it’ll change again and then there’s micro trends within trends. It’s so unfair to hitch our wagon for validation and acceptance in that and it’s so important that we help young people think critically through it but it’s not just the thinking, it’s the feeling. 

(17:40): 

So much of it is how we feel and what we’re valued for and that’s the biggest thing that I try to challenge when I say in my tagline to champion boys, to champion girls, to champion youth and to challenge culture. I want to challenge this idea that the least interesting, the least important part of you is how you look. And I’m so sorry, I say to young people, that we have a culture that’s just interested in this and what you own and what you wear and how you look and has neglected how important this is. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (18:07): 

And I feel like it’s exhausting as a parent to be worrying about this. I can’t even imagine being a young person that is bombarded with these images and everything that they see on social media, it must be absolutely exhausting. 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (18:20): 

I can’t imagine it and then you add the screen time too. I asked these year fives and sixes last week, “How do you know you’ve had too much screen time?” When my head starts to hurt, when my hands get hot, when my head gets hot, when they get that sense of discomfort and, of course, they can’t regulate that. Do you then get off? Some of them but, no, they’re cocking up some numbers and up late at night screen time and how it’s affecting them. So, yeah, I think we need to collectively as the village help make it easier to normalise screen time only for certain times in certain rooms of the house. I want to be very gentle when I say this but I’ve been chatting with police and other cyber safety, I’m not a cyber safety expert but I could’ve been chatting with them about this and there’s such this over worry about I hear from young people and sometimes from parents about children being kidnapped, this white van worry which it happens but it’s so rare. 

(19:11): 

What I’m worried about is what’s happening on here late at night. Catfishing for boys, fastest growing crime where teen boys and guys in their early 20s are being catfished, tricked into sending naked images of themselves and with them. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (19:25): 

Oh, that’s so sad. 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (19:28): 

It is so sad. And now, the eSafety Commissioner, Australian Federal Police and ACCCE which is the Australian Centre to Counter Child Exploitation, ace with triple C, is doing all it can to educate on this. And these aren’t some weirdos stuck in their mum’s basement doing this, these are organised crime syndicates in other nations that are grooming kids all across the world into trying to trick them to send naked images and the primary victim here in Australia is 94, 95% of teenage boys or guys in their early 20s. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (19:54): 

And we are hoping our kids have enough common sense to say no to this when it’s actual crime syndicates that are targeting them. 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (20:02): 

We’d like to think that but that’s clearly not happening. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (20:04): 

No. 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (20:05): 

And I was alarmed in many sessions where young people don’t know what to do when this happens. I don’t want it to happen but it’s do you know who to speak to, where you’d go to. So, we’ve got to educate on that and that’s the triaging if things go badly and we need to know that there’s support for them because, obviously, we’ve lost young boys who have taken their lives when this has happened to them. I met a young boy who said to me, “Sir, this happened to me when I was in year 10 and I had to learn this lesson the hardest way,” and he was head boy of one of the top schools in this country. And boys need to hear this and parents need to hear this that you can bounce back from this but he had to tell his parents and he said, “I had to learn a really hard lesson, it was embarrassing,” but he’s going to go on and flourish in life because of the young man that he is. 

(20:44): 

So, yeah, where there’s so much education around, I see guys who are being tricked in their early 20s. I met two year 12 boys last year in Queensland and one guy said, “It happened to my mate and I knew it happened to him and it still happened to me.” And part of my heartbreak from it and, again, I can’t make too many assumptions is I see how loneliness and insecurity is preyed on and, of course, a frontal lobe that hasn’t fully developed yet. And if you are sitting there and you’re lonely and you’re insecure and maybe you’re a bit bored and, all of a sudden, some cute girl’s giving you attention and you’re like, “Well, this is nice.” They’re not always going to make the best decisions and, heck, we didn’t have to navigate that. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (21:17): 

No, you’re right. Dan, I want to ask you for parents who are listening today if they go and have these fantastic conversations with their children and young people and they do learn through asking questions and being curious like we’ve talked about that perhaps their children are engaging in pornographic content. What advice have you got for them if they realise that things are maybe a little bit out of control? What can they do to support their kids to get back on track? 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (21:41): 

Yeah. Take a huge deep breath and play the long game. Yeah, it’s unfortunate, it’s a reality, it doesn’t have to be the defining factor in this young person’s life and we have to play the long game here. So, yeah, we can’t shame them, no one gets healthier in shame. We also, at the same time, have to hold the tension of how this could be impacting them and their future and their relationships. So, we need to hold that intention, the empathy and the significance of this and I think the biggest thing is getting their sense of how they perceive it. Because some young people will say to me, not everyone subscribes to an addiction framework but they will come up to me and say, “I’m addicted.” And I’m not going to correct them or say, “What do you mean?” but that’s how they have made sense of it because they’re like, “I can’t shake this. I can’t go a day or two without watching it.” 

(22:23): 

So, you would want to get a sense of are they aware of its impact on them, are they disliking that impact. Because of course, if you are like, “Oh, this is working for me,” why would you do anything different? And again, you can’t lead that, they have to be like, “No, this is actually something I’m struggling with.” And given how many boys say that once they’re given the space and, hopefully, the compassion to say so, they’re like, “Yeah, I see this, I see what it’s done to me, I’ve seen how it’s impacted me, what it’s done to my thoughts, blah, blah, blah,” whatever it might be and it’s like, “Okay, great, that’s something to work with.” Until someone gets to that point though, you can’t. And I think, from there, it’s like, “Well, what do we do?” This is the most under resourced area that I can think of is this … For adults, it’s, yeah, you could go to a psychologist, sex addiction fellowship, there’s things out there but where do teenage boys go? 

(23:10): 

So, of course, they go online and they see a lot of this. There’s a lot on YouTube, on Reddit where people are talking about how this has impacted them and a really big reason for that is because, some of them, it’s, once it affects their sexual function, that’s when they’re like, “Oh, I better take this seriously now.” And I could talk more about that but let’s stay on this. And so, they’re usually going online because who wants to go … If you’re a young man who’s struggling with it, even if you said I’m addicted, I can’t break it, I hate what this has done to my mind, my thoughts, my brain, who wants to go and sit with a psych and talk about it? So, this is the tough thing, they may well need to and get the heart of it because I am, not in all instances, but I do subscribe to what is the need that they’re trying to meet through this because it’s not the same. I think a lot of people go, “Oh, people watch porn horny or sexually curious,” yeah, that’s a part of it, sure, maybe. Do you know for sure? 

(23:59): 

Because what I’ve seen in the research and when I speak to therapists, it’s, wow, there’s actually a lot more going on here especially when you ask them, what are your triggers, when are you most likely, when are you susceptible and they’re usually in low mood states. They’re not saying, “Oh, yeah, I was just on the top of the world, succeeding in life, having a good time, feeling so connected to myself, my partner and just went down that rabbit hole.” 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (24:18): 

That community, yeah. 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (24:19): 

Yeah, yeah. You don’t hear that, there’s usually other things going on, not always but most of the time. It’s just so hard for young people themselves to say I’m going to do this, I actually think we need more of the structural things to help them and the good things to go after. Because my message is don’t watch porn and that’s it because you can not watch pornography but that doesn’t mean you are thriving. It doesn’t mean you’re fully alive, connected to community, family relationships, finding your strengths, contributing to the world. That’s actually the end goal, yeah, and so finding those outlets for them, I think, is so helpful and filling it with something positive, helping them with boundaries but I think asking them how could we support you, what would this actually look like, do you feel like you need more help because willpower is not going to get it done. Again, in their words, what do you need from us? Would you need us to put a blocker in place? Do you want to talk about this with somebody? Do you need an older male friend? What could it look like and there is software that exists that they could download as well. 

(25:18): 

So, Fight the New Drug is a great resource, I connected to that, they have an app called Fortify that also has these sorts of things that help you to reboot. There’s lots of this out there now, there’s more and more people creating this, these sorts of resources to help others. And so, yeah, that could be an actual outlet for it, it just depends and it depends on their age, how significant it is. I’ve met people, I interviewed a guy once upon a time, he was looking at porn seven hours a day, he’s now sober eight years and runs a sex addiction fellowship helping other men. I think this is a huge area that is so under-resourced that I can’t just sit here and say, “Well, hear this, this, go for this,” there is a sense of I just want to hopefully stop how much of this that gets into their heads and hearts because I don’t want them to be desensitised so that it would escalate. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (26:08): 

I love what you said about when you ask kids and have conversations with these kids about what do you need to help you, that children and young people actually come with a lot of amazing ideas about what they need and strategies that could support them and that they would stick to. 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (26:23): 

I have a principal sheet that I give to young boys and it’s a bit of a stock take and then getting them to think through their triggers. So, my little statement is to say what are your triggers? Bored, tired, lonely, sad, hungry, what’s going on? And then get them to do a stock take of their life and nine areas of their life and it could be more areas but everything from mindfulness to how you structure your environment, your digital environment, your bedroom, what are your hobbies that you’re doing, what’s your food diet and just do a stock take. Is the way that I’m structuring my life conducive to me choosing the good things or is it making it harder? Because I said to the boys today, if you got home and you’ve got chores and homework or other things to do and you just go and sit straight on the couch with your phone, that’s going to make it a lot harder to go and do those other things. Whereas, as we know, if you want to take up a new habit, make it easier, if you want to start running, make sure your running gear is set up once you get home from school or work so it’s, okay, there’s the queue, that’s what I’m doing next. Have a good snack or hydration thing that’s maybe going to give you a little kick. 

(27:30): 

So, you just do these things to make it easier for you and I think that’s a big part of it for boys, helping them to think through something like a series of principles and stock take on this. But at the end of it I do say do you need professional support because I don’t want to diminish that given the challenges that we’re facing. And on that note, we have seen, and I know this used to be contested, I don’t think it is as much, is the rise of porn induced erectile dysfunction. First time in human history have adolescent boys, guys in their 20s presenting to pelvic floor clinicians, specialists, GPs, therapists saying I’m struggling to either get or maintain an erection. And their partners have told me I thought this was about me and it’s like, “I thought I wasn’t hot enough, attractive enough, desirable enough,” I’m like, “No, no, no, no.” Because as I say to the boys, how you experience your body, sensuality, another person’s body, what you believe about sex, your ideas, this matters a lot. 

(28:23): 

And so, this used to be contested but now we’re even seeing ads, those ads where they try to sell similar to Viagra type medications over the internet, they’re even putting the hook in is porn affecting you. For me, it’s this is not worth debating- 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (28:39): 

It’s a no brainer  

Daniel Principe (Guest) (28:40): 

… because you’ve heard it from the partners, I see it in Reddit and YouTube comments sections of guys who talk about rebooting because they’re rebooting their brain-body connection to this. And then my dad bumped into my family GP last summer and he hasn’t seen me in, not my dad, my family GP hasn’t seen me in, I don’t know, 10 or 12 years and said, “What’s your son doing these days?” And I always laugh thinking I wonder how my parents answer that. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (29:02): 

How does Dad describe it? 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (29:04): 

Yeah. To answer that question, they’re big supporters, love them, grateful for them and he told him and he said, “Oh, I’d love to chat to him.” So, I literally just booked in, went, saw him, had a checkup and I said, “Doc, what are you seeing in your clinic?” and he said, “Oh, Dan, I’m having guys in their late teens and early 20s coming in here asking me for Viagra.” And I said, “What do you put it down to?” and we both knew their answer and he said, “What they’re watching. They’re more interested in the screen than the real thing, it is not doing it for them,” and that’s the worry for me in terms of the desensitisation. And again, it’s not to say because I don’t want to be misquoted and cancelled, I’m not saying, if you watch porn, your peepee will stop working and [inaudible 00:29:41], it’s just this is a risk factor. 

(29:44): 

When you go on a porn site, it’s not like a packet of smokes or alcohol where it’s like this has risk factors, there’s a little warning notification that says this could impact you. You don’t get that on a porn site saying this could make you feel lonely, this could make you judge your body or other people’s bodies, this could affect your sexual function, this could actually contribute to the exploitation of another person in the world which is a big driving factor of why I walked away from this. And so, we’ve seen that and we don’t get that information, there’s not enough of it out there. And so, for me, the reason I actually have hope is because I could understand if boys are like, “Dan, we’ve heard this all before, give it a rest,” but they haven’t. They haven’t had an opportunity to have these comprehensive age-appropriate conversations from when they’re little to address the world they’re navigating and then to think through it. That’s what gives me hope to keep doing this because I get to see their insights and empathy when we give them those opportunities and I just think they need more of them. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (30:42): 

Dan, it has been really great having you with us here, thank you so much for your time. And I just wondered, before you leave us, from all of our conversations, if a parent listening remembers nothing else, what message would you want them to take away today? 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (30:57): 

There’s two things really. I think, for me, it’s realising that this isn’t a reflection on your child’s character or on your capacities as a parent, have you failed them, it’s a reflection of we are raising children in a time that’s never been more difficult with vested billion and trillion-dollar interests. So, just to have empathy for young people, to be curious about them, their lives and to just have empathy for them, they’re living in a very, very different world. And there’s plenty of time for consequences, they might be needed but our goal is to connect. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (31:30): 

Dan, thank you so much, it’s been such a pleasure, what a great conversation. 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (31:34): 

Thank you for having me, I appreciate it. 

Narrator (31:38): 

Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au/families for a wide range of free information and resources to help support child and family mental health. Emerging Minds leads the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health, the Centre is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.