Transcript for
Tricky topics: Talking to children and young people about pornography

Narrator (00:02): 

Welcome to the Emerging Minds Families Podcast. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (00:05): 

Hi, I’m Alicia Ranford and you’re listening to an Emerging Minds Families Podcast. Before we start today’s episode, we would like to pay respect to the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains. We also pay respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, their ancestors and elders, past, present, and emerging from the different First Nations across Australia. 

(00:33): 

In this episode, we are going to be talking about navigating pornography and sexualized media content with children and young people. If you have little ears listening, you might want to listen in another time, or if you feel this topic might bring up difficult feelings for you, perhaps give this week a miss and join us next fortnight. Or you can find resources for support in our show notes. This episode is the first in a two-part series with our guest, Dan Principe. Dan is a passionate youth advocate and educator who speaks with thousands of boys around Australia, helping them to navigate the often confusing and complex landscape of being young boys and young men in today’s world. 

(01:15): 

In this episode, we’re going to talk about encouraging our boys to recognise and resist distorted attitudes towards bodies, relationship and sex. And in our next episode, we will turn to looking at masculinity in a society where we need to educate and eliminate violence against women and navigate with our young people, the world of toxic influences. Dan is going to talk to us about how we can help our wonderful young boys grow into young men that can confidently explore the landscape they live and play in. Welcome, Dan. Thank you so much for taking the time to meet with me today whilst you are here in Adelaide. 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (01:51): 

Thank you so much for having me. Looking forward to the chat. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (01:54): 

I feel like there is so much for us to cover today, but I wondered if we could start with how did you get into this space? 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (02:04): 

I know, it was pretty peculiar. Hey, I wouldn’t have imagined this when I was studying back in the day, that this is what I’d be up to. I think, like lots of people, we bring our own hopes or our hurdles, the things that we’ve navigated in life and we somehow weave it together. I feel very privileged to do what I do and entrusted by schools, communities, and parts of Australia to engage young people to talk about topics that most parents would realise are significant, some would say sacred. So I don’t take that lightly. I’m a former health professional who did a post-grad in media and PR. I’m very interested in how what we consume digitally, our digital mental diets, shape us. It’s not the only thing that shapes us. Of course, role modelling, attachment, trauma, shape us, but how does the world around us and the social norms that we ascribe to shape us? And so I’m interested in that and that intersection, especially when it comes to relationships, masculinities and sexuality. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (02:55): 

And I feel like this digital landscape is changing so quickly for our young people. I imagine that has a big part to play in what they’re accessing and how they’re accessing information. 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (03:06): 

Oh, absolutely. It’s a fast-moving train. I mean, meme culture, are you staying up to date with the latest? 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (03:11): 

I’m going to say I am trying to stay up to date. 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (03:14): 

Yeah. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (03:15): 

My kids would tell you that I’m not up to date. 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (03:16): 

No, of course. I mean, I get it. It’s fast-moving and so yeah, it is. It’s shaping them. A lot of it they’ll just dismiss as brain rot and just nonsense that they’re laughing about. But I do wonder, especially when we see the intersection of maybe bodies and the types of bodies that are on display, the kinds of messages, and the year seven boys talking about grifters trying to flog them products and pick on their insecurities. This is what I have year seven and eight boys telling me. They’re aware of that. They can understand it intellectually, but there’s people after them on these online platforms. 

(03:49): 

And I just want to say upfront, I have so much empathy for them because I can’t imagine doing puberty and adolescence with a smartphone in my pocket. It was tough and challenging for all of us for different reasons. I’m yet to find an adult who’s like, “Yeah, love to have another crack at it with a smartphone in my pocket.” So I think some compassion for them. Doesn’t mean that hurting themselves, hurting others, things that are unhelpful, we’re going to just tolerate it. But I think we’ve got to start with understanding the world that they’re in is very, very different to the worlds that we navigated in our teenage years. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (04:21): 

Yeah, I love that message. We talk a lot here about how things are different from the previous generations and they’ll be different for the next generation. So I love that sense of compassion that you bring to the work that you do. We’re going to be talking about pornography today. What do you hear from kids that you speak to in schools all around Australia about the age that they are accessing this kind of content? 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (04:42): 

Yeah, it’s interesting. You ask young people and you just get a sense because of the language that they use. And I like to be upfront that I’ve spoken in mainstream media many times, that I was exposed to porn when I was about 11 years of age. Wasn’t searching for it, wasn’t looking for it, was shown it by a family friend. And of course this became my first sexual experience, my sex educator, and that was well before my first kiss or sexual experience. And I just want to ask the question, what did that start to teach little 11-year-old Dan about men, women, sex, bodies, intimacy, pleasure, respect, consent? That’s just a question I put to every single audience to think through that and to realise that this is acting as a default sex educator for girls two years before their first kiss or sexual experience. For boys, it’s about three years. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (05:30): 

That’s scary. 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (05:32): 

And so there’s a lot of external conditioning from what’s known as a supernormal stimulus that’s hitting them. And I say to them, it’s natural and normal to be curious about sex, bodies, intimacy, pleasure, natural and normal. But I want to ask, what is this teaching us? And so the younger ones might say in year five and six that they’ve seen inappropriate pictures, pop-ups. By the time we’re in year seven, eight and nine, they know what the word pornography means, absolutely. And quite often, some of the year sixes do as well, such as how ubiquitous it is, we’re saturated in it. I put up in my slides and I ask young people, what percentage of the internet do you think is pornography? And they estimate it, and it’s conservatively, it’s about 30% of the internet. It’s a $97 billion industry. And we have pop-ups in their online spaces trying to groom them to access their content, to hijack their limbic systems and their natural developing curiosities. 

(06:27): 

And can I say that they are not bad, wrong or in trouble for that? I know that this is hard. I know we don’t like thinking about this, talking about this, but they’re being preyed on by an industry that knows how their brains and bodies work better than we do. And they’re usually exposed, like me, someone shows them, a pop-up, or they’ve searched out of curiosity. Now, all of those reasons do not require a punitive approach. We have to be educating and hopefully educating well before they have that experience because they are so aware of this. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (06:59): 

That’s frightening statistics, isn’t it? And I think to be preyed on at such a young age when they don’t really understand what they’re accessing and what that could mean for their brain chemistry is pretty complex. And I’m sure for many of you listening today, this might all sound pretty frightening. And Dan, I know that you’re going to talk us through some great resources and strategies that we can all use to help navigate this space and to really support having positive conversations with our children. But I wondered first whether you could explore some of the impacts on children’s brain chemistry and their thinking moving forward, even if the kind of imagery that they see on screen is perhaps not realistic of a consensual relationship. 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (07:41): 

Yeah, well back to the supernormal label. Well, it’s called that because of its ability to obviously create quite a surge of dopamine. And that is something that our brains are not wired to be in states of continual stimulation and sexual arousal disconnected from our bodies. I talk about sex being a embodied act. We’re in our bodies and hopefully then present to another person’s, which is what makes it good. And we can talk about this as adults, but it’s like how do we translate that for a young person as they try and conceive of this? And I said to the boys, “I just want you to be aware you are going to be preyed on by industries that will seek to inflame and exploit your natural curiosities and sex drives. They’re not bad or wrong for having them. It’s just they’re going to try and provoke them in lots of different ways to have you as a repeat customer. That’s it. It’s just a powerful stimulus.” 

(08:36): 

And so I talk about the brain impact, the grey matter impact on that and neural pathways. But then there’s the other side because obviously our brain and our minds are not the same thing. They’re connected, but they’re not the same thing. And so how does this impact your mind in the sense of your imaginations, your beliefs, your attitudes? And of course we talk about it in this world as your sexual scripts, how you understand sex to occur between persons. Who, what, when, where, how, all of that. And we all believe something about this, whether we’ve examined it or not, is another question. And I just provide young people as they go through secondary school opportunities to examine that, to think about that. Because my worry, and I’ve written about this previously, is that their sexual scripts will be so hijacked by pornography that when they hear a yes, they will then assume that that means everything I’ve seen in pornography. If they perceive desire reciprocity, someone being keen, that that then means I get to enact everything that I’ve seen in pornography. 

(09:34): 

Or conversely, I will be subjected to everything I’ve seen in pornography without question of is this what I want? Do I like this? Does it make me feel safe? Is this going to be enjoyable? Do I have a say in this? And that’s why we need an ethic beyond consent. And there’s much more to be said about that. So that’s the concern. There’s lots of scary stats. And I usually say there’s things that I could say that I don’t want to say and you don’t want to hear when it comes to how this is causing significant harms to children at younger and younger ages in terms of acting out on other children. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (10:07): 

And I’m thinking too also about the mental health ramifications of seeing something, and if that’s your script and then actually not being able to enact that or wanting to enact that, but feeling like that is what may be considered normal. 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (10:21): 

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, mental health for me is also around just the bio-physiology of dopamine and what that’s doing, being in a state of continuous arousal. Because one of the key signs, and it’s not just pornography, it could be gaming, social media, is that they find themselves not then enjoying the other things they enjoy in life because they’ve become desensitised. It’s like, “What do you mean I’m going to go home and do my homework when I can get an easy hit here?” Why would you go and fix a bike, go for a swim, take a photograph, play, create, sing, I don’t know, if you can go and get a quicker, easier hit. That’s the worry. And I worry about that, which is secondary, tertiary after effects in terms of mental health because I want them to go and find the things that make them come alive. 

(11:04): 

And that’s what I worry about with all of this is just the vortex dragging them into the device because as I said, this is a pretty powerful hit. I think there is trauma. Some psychologists will talk about this as trauma to young brains. They’re actually encountering this. And especially what we’re talking about and parents, I don’t want to be too graphic or descriptive here, but we’re talking about not an old Playboy magazine. We’re talking about quite often huge depictions of racism, violence, misogyny. We’re talking about horrific things on camera because of course the game is for clicks. And if you’re becoming desensitised, which happens because again, if you ate your favourite dinner every night, you’re not going to get as excited by it no matter how delicious it is. And it’s the same for this. If you want to keep someone coming back multiple times, well you just can’t keep serving the same kind of content. You need novelty. And that usually means more extreme. 

(11:59): 

So a first time user on a pornography site is highly likely to see violent content. And that violence is mostly directed towards women and increasingly more so if that woman happens to be a minority. And so we have here an industry that trades in racism, misogyny, and violence that we deem unacceptable in any other context except this one. And I don’t often get to say that. Maybe it’s because I’ve had a long day, three sessions talking to teenage boys, but that is something that we haven’t quite reckoned with as a society, how this would be deemed unacceptable elsewhere, where we would do all we can to protect certainly the youngest children from this. And yet what we have now is just a complete free-for-all where this is what young children are encountering. They’re not just seeing a naked body, but what they’re actually seeing is quite often eroticised violence. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (12:54): 

And so if we take this from two perspectives, because I want to talk about what you recommend children can do, what can parents do in this highly digitalised world to try and protect their children? What’s your advice for parents about what they can do and what age should they be starting to think about this with their kids? 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (13:13): 

As young as possible. And again, I don’t want that to be an alarmist narrative. It’s just reality. And one thing I really do want to say is if this has happened to your child, it’s not a reflection on them. And it’s also not a reflection that you’re a bad parent. I know some of the best parents. I know parents who have homeschooled their kids and as they were cooking dinner there, their son was exposed to pornography here through a pop-up. So as hard as that is to hear, this isn’t a reflection that someone has failed as a parent, we actually have to move beyond that and concern ourselves with the wellbeing of children who we’re trying to set up for relationships and romance and sexual experiences in due course. 

(13:52): 

And so I recognise that. I want to have empathy for that and humanise how hard that can be to hear that, but we do have to close the gap. And there’s e-safety research that shows how many parents believe their children have seen porn versus the reality of it. And sometimes I think it because we think, is this because we have failed? I understand that impulse. I can sympathise with that. But on that note, so what can we do? Well, I think there’s so many different levels to that. I think too often we just go to education. And as I say to some of my partner schools, you could wheel me out every single week or better speakers and educators than me, but that can’t compete with the fact that 16 to 20% of boys in this country in upper secondary, are consuming porn every day. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (14:33): 

Wow, that is- 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (14:33): 

It’s 1 to 3% of girls. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (14:36): 

That’s an incredible statistic, isn’t it? 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (14:38): 

And it’s about 56% every week. And they’re not bad for that. They’ve just been hooked up to something that has been socially normalised. No one’s given them the facts on, they can’t make an informed decision on. And yeah, it’s given them a pretty significant rush. So you know, scratches a pretty hardwired itch in their limbic system, so I don’t judge them for that. That was me from the age of 11 to 20, probably off and on. And thankfully in a world that it was harder to access. Part that I don’t tell young people, but I’m happy for the listeners to hear is that I was exposed on a floppy disc. These young kids wouldn’t know what that is, but the world has changed. So I have empathy for them, but education alone is not going to cut it. And that’s my reason why. So we need other things in different levels. We definitely need to educate. We definitely need to not shame and not shy away from this. I’m all for education or else I wouldn’t be getting out of bed in the morning. But there’s got to be more to it than that. 

(15:31): 

We have to think about what are the ways that we, in our own homes, can put safety mechanisms. I’m not here to endorse any particular provider that does different safety online. I just do your due diligence. Ask people who are tech savvy what actually works and works across going onto different Wi-Fis or different devices because quite often, where parents get tripped up is they’re like, “Oh, well we’ve done something on our home internet provider.” But then if you bring a different device in, they can go around it or they can tether their phone, or the school might have given the kids a laptop and they think it’s safe on the laptop side, but then it’s not once they put it on a different Wi-Fi network. It was safe at school, but not necessarily at home. So there’s your kid upstairs and you think, “Oh they’ve got a school device, they’re all fine,” but has anyone checked if that’s actually going to stop these pop-ups, stop all this coming through on any internet, not just at school. 

(16:28): 

So there are things to ask questions of. What are those policies? And again, put stuff in place at home. I think then having these conversations with other parents, and that’s always a tough reality for parents to say, “I can manage what we’re doing under our roof, but then they’ve got to go on the school bus, they’ve got to go to school.” And I think ensuring that young people know what their rights are, that this is actually sexual harassment if somebody shows them pornography. And they’re under the age of 16, it’s actually considered grooming if they’re under 16 and the person showing them is over 18. It’s significant, but most of us don’t know this. I only learned this in the last few years because that’s what happened to me technically, by the law, by the book. Now, I’m not here to engage necessarily in a punitive approach, but we should be aware of that and for young people to know the significance of it and their rights, especially girls who are quite often shown it by a partner, by a boy or someone trying to intimidate them. Happens to boys too, but more girls. 

(17:18): 

And they should know that that’s actually sexual harassment. That’s not okay. And to be supported in that. So there’s some of the structural things, the cultural things, and of course, we need our government to implement age verification. I’ve been advocating for this for years. The social media ban, I have mixed views on that. I think they’re diagnosing the problem well. I’m not sure if that’s the solution. And that’s controversial. People got different takes. Forgive me, don’t come after me. What I’m more interested in is the content they’re being exposed to. Violent crimes, beheadings, pornography. I’m more interested in getting that. Encouraging kids with suicidal ideas. That’s actually what I want to stop, because YouTube in and of itself isn’t bad. What’s bad is that you’re on YouTube Kids, and I have year fives and sixes telling me that you could be watching YouTube Kids and quickly you’ll get a flash up of something inappropriate in the video. 

(18:05): 

So YouTube’s not necessarily bad, but that’s what goes on. And I want the harmful stuff addressed the content that’s affecting them. So age verification for pornography, gambling, and some of these diet-based fads that are causing harm and body image issues for young people should be addressed. I wish we could do that as the first step. And especially pornography, which was recommended bipartisan support many years ago that the Senate Committee said, “This is what needs to happen. This is what needs to happen. We need this as one barrier.” People say, “Is that just a tick box? Are you over 18?” No, no, no, no. It’s technology that ensures that you have to verify that you are over 18 if you want to engage in this content. And the tech already exists. There’s lots of different age verification providers that exist. And if people want more information on that, they can go to one of the peak bodies who represents them, that answers all the Q and A on privacy, on laws and implementation of it. 

(18:59): 

So it exists. And I think that’s something that our e-safety commission has clearly said we need to trial a pilot on. So that’s where we’re at politically on this. And that’s where parents need, like I said, support and a chop out from government because parents, the best parents, best community, best village doing its bit is competing against a $97 billion industry. And all the social media platform. And social media is where young people are discovering pornography most likely. And so that’s actually what we need to be doing structurally. But in our homes, having the conversation, starting them younger. And for example, when I’m in primary schools, I don’t use the P word. I will start a conversation by saying, “Who has a smartphone? When did you first get it? Has your parents talked to you about your responsibilities on it? Do you know if they’re trying to keep you safe? Why is that?” 

(19:47): 

Oh, and they’ll tell me different things. “Why would your parents keep you safe online?” And I’ll learn a lot by how they answer that question. I’ll learn so much about what language they’re using, what concepts they understand and what they understand about safety. And they might say, “inappropriate pictures,” and we know what that means, or they might use the P word, which is great. And then I’ll say, “Do we all know what that means?” And I’ll just check in with them. And so I just ask lots of questions so then I can supplement that information. And of course, my biggest message to all young people, whether it’s a year five or six or a year two, is this doesn’t mean you’re a bad human. It doesn’t mean you’re in trouble. And for the younger ones especially, please go and talk to a trusted adult about this so that they can help keep you safe online. And so we do have to talk about this in the context of body safety and consent, and especially challenging the ideas. 

(20:35): 

Now, some of the parents listening might have stopped breathing and gotten a bit uncomfortable with all of this. And I understand that. One of the biggest hopes that I have, and you need to hear it, is the fact that young people are thinking more critically about this than ever before. And I’m happy in whatever show notes or whatever resources to send some work that I’ve been privileged to play a small part in with our e-safety commissioner that actually shows what young boys are saying. They’re not all doped up on this thinking that this is great, along with toxic influences and other things going on. They’re actually thinking critically. 

(21:05): 

The challenge is, and as I don’t know about you all, you all may be perfect, is that we can know what’s good for us, but we don’t practice it. I know I shouldn’t stare at this thing before I go to bed at night, but I do. I do from time to time. And so that’s the tension. So what inspires me about the younger generation is they are thinking quite critically about this. We definitely need to keep encouraging that. But there are such signs that there is a cultural shift underway, but I think they need our support because they’re fighting something set up within this limbic capitalist dynamic to just keep provoking their base instincts. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (21:42): 

And what a great thing to hear that from your experience, kids are thinking more critically about it. Is there an element that they don’t know how to talk to their parents about it? 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (21:49): 

Absolutely. And if parents are thinking that young Johnny, Timmy, Sarah, Katie is coming home and being like, “Hey mom and dad, do you reckon tonight we can just get together and talk about porn?”, I think you’re going to be waiting a while. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (22:01): 

Yeah. 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (22:02): 

Yeah. Young people, I think, from what I’ve seen in the research and my own experience, they’re actually mostly okay-ish to have these chats. They’re going to be uncomfortable, especially if it’s mom and dad, but they’ll still do it. They’re just not going to set it up. They’re not going to create the context. And I think sometimes if the later you leave it, the harder it is. It’s like with any new habits, it’s like the earlier you start, the easier it is, and they just get used to it. Different parents have different styles of doing this. Some of them maybe just write it out or ask questions via email. Some of them, it’s like the whole sit in the car thing, don’t look eye to eye. I mean, I love eyeballing people, but that’s not everybody’s cup of tea. 

(22:38): 

And so yeah, I think young people are open to this, but that’s where it also takes a village. It’s so much on parents, and I recognise that they bring their stories. This isn’t just abstract. This cuts to the core of our humanity. And given what people have experienced in the stats in this space of just people’s experiences of sex and relationships and intimacy and hurts and heartaches in this space. And that’s one of the things is there’s lots of resources out there about how to have these conversations. I provide them at the end of my parent sessions. It’s great. But the one thing that I think gets missed is if we haven’t started to, I guess, resolve or sit with or make peace with our own stories in this space, it’s really hard to talk about it in a non-reactive way. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (23:24): 

I think that’s a really important aspect, isn’t it? We’ve got to be comfortable in asking. And really, we’ve got a responsibility to our kids to navigate through that. And if you can’t navigate through that on your own, there are people you can talk to who can help you do that. 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (23:37): 

Absolutely. And that’s where support for adults. I’m not judging an adult. I have no idea what somebody’s history, what their trauma is, what their experience is. So again, it’s not a shortcoming of yours, but it’s just to acknowledge that I have seen parents try to have these chats and you see that they’ve gotten heightened, they’ve gotten reactive, they’ve gotten defensive, because yeah, there’s a lot hanging to it. So I always say that one of the biggest tips, and it came through our Consent Can’t Wait campaign where I’m an ambassador, alongside some wonderful other humans, that is all about encouraging parents and adults and caregivers to normalise having these chats with each other so that they can have them with young people to get more comfortable in it. 

(24:18): 

Because I’ve seen it where parents have gone to have these chats with these kids, and I’ve always said there’s one helpful tip is, did you triage it with each other first? Did you test it with each other so it was less reactive and you’ve felt some things as you’ve brought up topics or even thought about your stories, what you would have liked to have known. And then also empathise that it’s so much more difficult for this younger generation in this space. So yeah, I think that’s helpful. So yeah, if people want those resources head to consent.gov.au. They’re fantastic. It’s not a cringe milkshake ad. It’s just experts in this space talking directly and age appropriately to have these conversations and give us conversation starters as well. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (24:58): 

Yeah, that’s fantastic, Dan. And we will certainly put all of those in our show notes at the end of this podcast. One of the things I think most resonated with me in what we were just talking about is how you can start by asking questions, and that’s a really gentle way to approach it. And I think that goes along with anything. I love that question that you posed, “Why do you think we’re trying to keep you safe?” to find out what they already know? 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (25:22): 

Absolutely. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (25:22): 

And I love to think that maybe our young people are getting more education so that they can answer, “Well, maybe it is because of the P word or inappropriate content,” and move forward. 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (25:32): 

Totally. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (25:32): 

That’s a really nice gentle way to approach an awky topic. 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (25:35): 

I’m big on asking questions. I think it’s just such an important skill for life. It is just so important because for me, it harks back to my goal isn’t just how young people don’t watch porn. It’s far bigger than that. It’s like do you have the skills, the strengths, the capacities, the EQ to form healthy relationships? And I’m not just talking romantically. And part of that is actually being in tune, as you guys would know here. Being in tune, listening well, reading other people to connect with them, to understand them. And for me, asking questions is just so important because you may say a word, but do I know what you mean when you say that word? 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (26:07): 

And we love the word curiosity here. It’s about being curious, wondering- 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (26:11): 

Absolutely. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (26:11): 

… looking at a child’s behaviour and wonder what’s going on behind it and what it is that they’re getting or missing and navigating through that. 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (26:19): 

I think one of the challenges, someone can feel like asking questions is an inquisition sometimes because they’re just not used to it. They’ve never had that. Or maybe because they’ve got a guilty conscience. But that’s why I think it’s really important, and I explain this to people, the reason I just ask questions, I’m just curious. If I didn’t care about you, I’d just jog on and move on to be honest. I wouldn’t ask follow-up questions, but it’s actually because I care, because I’m interested, I want to know. I want to know, what does that mean for you? How does that show up in your life? Tell me. Can you give me an example? I’m actually curious. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (26:50): 

And to back that up with that beautiful message of “You’re not in trouble. This doesn’t make you a bad person if you have access to this stuff, but I want to know more.” 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (26:58): 

Absolutely. And sometimes it’s like, yeah, don’t go home and be like, “Hey Sonny, have you watched pornography?” But sometimes it’s just like, “What are the kids at school talking about? What have they said about this?” Or using the media to make it relevant, like when Taylor Swift had deep fakes made of her. When Kanye West rocked up to whatever hellhole thing was going on in Hollywood where he was fully dressed and his partner was like, I don’t know what you would describe it, and I’m not judging her, but gosh, that’s a great conversation starter to be like, “Why was he fully dressed? Why was he wearing sunglasses? What do you think that’s about?” Just using that to just make it relevant. 

(27:32): 

Something like that, I think is a really helpful tool that can hook in with what’s happening in their lives and in pop culture. And that’s why I think it’s good. And it comes back to a question you asked right at the beginning about like staying across it all. I struggle to stay across it all and I’m up to my eyeballs in it. But that’s why I think one of the greatest things parents can do, even if you hate the thought of what your kids are up to, what they’re interested in is I just ask them, “Can I watch something with you?” Put it on the screen, watch it on a shared computer on your TV, and actually sit with it. And especially if it’s stuff that you already are suspicious isn’t healthy or beneficial. We’re not talking pornography, we’re just talking about other influencers or things that they find funny. It’s like you want to just keep those lines of communication open. 

(28:13): 

And yeah, I think in doing this, just like, “Show me.” I said this about the whole, and I hate talking about it, the Andrew Tate phenomenon. It’s like, “Yeah, get them. Put it up on the screen. Let’s watch it. Let’s unpack it. Let’s think critically.” Because I think if we just go, “That’s bad. You’re bad. That’s terrible. How could you? Oh my gosh, you’re awful”, it’s like, gosh, they’re just going to go further and further. And then Tate’s going to tell them, “See? That’s because they haven’t escaped the matrix yet and why you need to rely on me.” And so whereas if you’re like, “Great, let’s unpack this,” even if you feel like you’re pushing down bile to get through it all- 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (28:42): 

Yeah, cringing. 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (28:43): 

… it’s like that is the only way we can get through this, and we need everybody involved in that and unpacking what’s going on with them and not shaming them because they don’t know any different. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (28:54): 

Thanks, Dan. I think that’s a great message to end on and I’m so looking forward to talking more in our next episode. 

Daniel Principe (Guest) (29:01): 

Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (29:03): 

As we end this first episode in our two-part series with Dan Principe, we know that conversations around pornography and sexualized media content can be really hard. You can find resources to support these conversations with the children and young people in your lives in our show notes. Join us next fortnight as Dan helps us unpack toxic masculinity and how we can help our wonderful young boys grow into young men who can confidently explore the landscape they live and play in. 

Narrator (29:35): 

Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au/families for a wide range of free information and resources to help support child and family mental health. Emerging Minds leads the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health. The centre is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.