Transcript for
Using self-determination to support family violence interventions
Narrator [00:02]: Welcome to the Emerging Minds Podcast.
Dana Shen [00:11]: This podcast is part of a series called ‘Listening to the stories of healing’. Within the series, you will hear stories from community and the very diverse experiences of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, and how these narratives have shaped the amazing work that is happening in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities across Australia. Here at Emerging Minds, we like to call it the Secret Garden, the stories and experiences that non-Aboriginal people don’t always get to see or hear. Whilst these stories include sadness and hurts and sometimes can feel uncomfortable to listen to, it is through listening to these narratives that you will get a glimpse of the deep wisdom, knowledge and healing practises of families and communities, and understand why our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples are part of the oldest continuing culture in the world.
Dana Shen [01:02]: Welcome everyone. This is Dana Shen, an Aboriginal cultural consultant working with Emerging Minds. Craig Rigney is a proud Aboriginal man and the CEO and co-founder of Kornar Winmil Yunti, also known as KWY. KWY is an Aboriginal not-for-profit organisation based in Adelaide that works closely with the specialist homelessness, domestic violence and child protection services across South Australia.
Dana Shen [01:28]: Thanks so much for chatting with me today, Craig. Before we get into the detail of what you do in your work, could you tell me a little bit about yourself and what personally drives you?
Craig Rigney [01:40]: Hi Dana. A little bit about myself. Well, I’m the CEO of Kornar Winmil Yunti, KWY Aboriginal corporation. So we’re a not-for-profit charity organisation and we came about in 2011, where there was a real need for a safe space for men to talk and also for men to address some of their use of violence against women as well. And for me, being able to work with elders back in that time to set up KWY was crucial. I was in Aboriginal health at the time and we absolutely recognise that there was a need to work with men who use violence against women and also to give Aboriginal men a safe space to talk about stuff that was bothering them as well.
Craig Rigney [02:25]: What drives me to be in this space is what I’ve seen growing up, and particularly, I guess, as I got older and realised that sadly there’s a lot of violence in homes, all homes, not just Aboriginal homes, but there was a real need for a specialist service for Aboriginal families to support women and children who were experiencing or who have experienced domestic and family violence, and also for men who have used violence. And I don’t mean Aboriginal men, I mean all men. And I guess in the conversations today, we need to make it really clear that it’s not just Aboriginal men that use violence against Aboriginal women, it’s all men use violence against women and Aboriginal women and children.
Craig Rigney [03:08]: My passion is really creating a safe space for families to have those discussions and for a service response where they feel culturally safe to have those discussions and to really be able to reach out and look for some sort of early intervention for themselves and for their family that we know that KWY can provide in a culturally safe manner.
Dana Shen [03:29]: Thanks Craig. And you’ve begun to talk a little bit about this already, but I wondered if you could begin to share a little bit more about KWY and tell us more about the family centred approach that you have to family violence.
Craig Rigney [03:42]: Sure. As I said, 2011 KWY started. There was only a couple of us at that time. And over the years we realised that there was a gap in service delivery. We were working with men who were using violence, but some of our Aboriginal families and Aboriginal women who wanted to stay in that relationship were trying to access services to get some respite or to have an understanding of support from those services, non-Aboriginal services, but they didn’t fit the criteria or those services were unable to provide that. So KWY, in 2015, put in our first Aboriginal women’s worker, and that changed KWY forever. It was a beginning of a journey around providing a holistic response for family violence in the home. So we were able to work with the men who were perpetrating the violence against women and children, but also were able to work with the women who are experiencing the violence. And then the next step for us was obviously then to work with the whole family, so we wanted to be able to work with the children who were also experiencing the family violence. And that led us down the path where we were able to have a conversation with the Commonwealth around the holistic family response to domestic family and sexual violence.
Dana Shen [04:57]: I wonder if you could talk more about how the people that provide these roles, so the women, the men and children’s workers, how do they work together to support families and around families?
Craig Rigney [05:09]: Sure. I think that’s probably the fundamental and core aspect of our holistic model, is in the nature of the way the model is designed, is each worker will go out to the family at any given time, so we’ll have our men’s worker work with the men, women’s worker work with the women and children’s workers work with the children. And what that creates is real time ability for us to measure risk and safety, because after each visit, no matter which individual, which practitioner has gone to see the family, they come back and update the rest of the team. So we have a multi D, a multidisciplinary meeting, and update each member that’s working within that family. And what that does is it allows us to map the behaviours in the family, look for those positive parenting patterns, the safety patterns, and also of course looking for risk.
Craig Rigney [06:02]: So the fact that the men’s worker and the women’s worker and the children’s worker can have those real time conversations, we aren’t waiting for another service to get back to us around what’s happening in the family because we’re there, or one of our workers is there. So it’s real time. And for us and the families, it’s so beneficial for them, that they are able to have those discussions with their workers in that holistic manner. And of course, what we find is that we start to begin to have conversations, not just around the family violence, but then the other complexities that are sitting in the family unit as well, which we can then later on refer into other KWY programs. So we’re building an organisation that has the ability to provide across many levels, not just for the family, but individuals in the family, around that holistic, culturally safe wraparound service for them.
Dana Shen [06:49]: And I think what I find so, I think, wonderful about this way of working is that you really are working with the organic nature of family and all the dynamics in it, as opposed to separating humans apart from their day-to-day lives. So I think that’s so special.
Craig Rigney [07:05]: Yes. Yes. You have to, otherwise you’re not going to get anywhere. And I think that’s a crucial part of it. And what you’ve said there about being organic, it is organic and fluid because anything can happen at any time. So for our workforce to be able to assist families where the families need assistance… We’re not there to push families forward, we’re not there to pull them along with us, we’re there to walk alongside the families. And that was really crucial. So for us, it’s about being able to work with a family, but at their pace and finding out what the needs of the family are, not the needs of us or the needs of the funding body, but the outcomes that the family wants.
Craig Rigney [07:39]: Now if we know that if the department of child protection are involved or if we know that the police were involved, that’s okay, the family knows that as well. So we know where those statutory agencies want the family to be, but what we want to be able to do is create a space for the family to make that journey on their own, that family led decision-making so they can take some ownership of that and more importantly, see that being Aboriginal isn’t a risk factor, that our culture is a strength and we’re forever bringing that back to the family and say, “Look what you’ve done so far. Look what you’ve been able to do.” We’ve still got a way to go, but being strength-based is so crucial. And a lot of people throw around the word strength-based whether they actually know how to use it, or whether they know how to talk about it or explain that to a family what that looks like, I think can be missing sometimes.
Dana Shen [08:27]: I’d like to come back to that Craig, but also, as you were talking about culture as strength, another key and similar principle for us is self-determination. And so I’m really interested in your views on what self-determination means within this space of work, when we’re trying to create that for our people.
Craig Rigney [08:47]: That’s big. Look, I think there’s so many layers to self-determination that we could talk about, whether it’s about an individual, a family or community, or an organisation or a community of practise. Many organisations are working together for self-determination, and I think from an organisational point of view, colonisation has had its negative effects on all Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people and our allies as well who are on this journey with us. But I think from an organisational point of view, what that means is actually allowing Aboriginal community-controlled organisations to do the work. We know that Aboriginal business and working with Aboriginal families, we get better outcomes if they can work with those Aboriginal communities. So for me, from an organisational point of view, I would love to see that self-determination and us being allowed to do the work in our communities the way that we want to do it, because funding bodies sometimes have, they always got a criteria and KPIs. That’s fine, but perhaps let us do the work that we do that we know works best.
Craig Rigney [09:52]: Now people throw around co-design and what that means. And sometimes people can say, “Oh, we want you to work with the community to co-design a model to get the best outcomes that the family needs.” Yep. We can do that, but we’re still held within a constraint of what that model looks like. So what is true co-design at the end of the day? And for me, I think self-determination and how we can work with other organisations and community around modelling and co-design can be built in there. So all of a sudden, my brain is racing not just around an organisation, but a model, but how we engage with Aboriginal families and communities, and where’s the self-determination in the Aboriginal community and the Aboriginal families? And what does that mean? Because for far too long, the minute we start talking about self-determination, we are stereotyped, we are pigeonholed and we are put in the corner as angry, Aboriginal people, angry Blacks because we want to have a voice. And sadly we know, due to our oppression, what that means is any minority group that’s oppressed seeks a voice.
Craig Rigney [11:00]: And we hit this invisible ceiling because we don’t have enough leaders from our own kind to give us a pathway for that voice to be heard. So we hit this invisible ceiling, we turn on ourselves sometimes, or the frustrations, they just smoulder in the background. And that affects not only those individuals, but communities because all of a sudden our social and emotional wellbeing takes a hit. How often do we say, “Oh, we’re talking about the same things that our aunties and uncles and elders and ancestors have been talking about for decades.” There’s a creation of intergenerational trauma while we’re sitting here right now having these discussions, because I can feel that my spirit aches for self-determination and I’ve got to be a voice for an organisation, but also for our families, and talking to a government or funding bodies that don’t necessarily understand what that means. So we’re hitting the ceiling all the time and swirling around, and it’s really hard to fight your way out of that because you get tired, as we all do.
Dana Shen [12:02]: You’ve started on this direction, but I wondered if you could speak a bit more about how services and practitioners can work with Aboriginal men who use violence, given everything that you have just said and all the complexities, what is it that practitioners should be thinking about?
Craig Rigney [12:20]: I think the first thing is absolutely you have to have a skilled workforce, because doing that work, it is dangerous. And I mean, it’s dangerous in the way that if you don’t understand or have an understanding around the psyche of why men use violence against women and children, you can inadvertently increase the risk to women and children. So you’ve got to be able to have those conversations where you hold the men accountable first and foremost, safety is a factor, but also being able to have the voice of the women and children in the work that you do. Now, I don’t necessarily mean having women and children sitting in the men’s group or behaviour change group, but their voice has to be embedded in the structure of the conversations. Because without that, I don’t believe that we’re going to make change. So I think holding the men accountable, a skilled workforce…
Craig Rigney [13:07]: But when we’re talking about working with men through an Aboriginal context, whether they’re non-Aboriginal men with an Aboriginal partner or Aboriginal men themselves, we still want to embed a cultural thread to that, because what we’ve heard in a lot of young Aboriginal men is the misbelief that violence is in our culture. Now, if we were acting in such a way and using violence against women for the last 65 to a hundred thousand years, I don’t think we would have survived that long. So for me, there’s this real dilution of Aboriginal culture. And I think that’s because when we lose our connectivity to culture, we fill that void with something else. And sadly for us, we see white Western, predominantly American Western, and we only have to look at the sexualization of women in pop music and what that does to the psyche and the accessibility through internet around pornographic sites and how that’s altering the perception of what’s normal and what’s not.
Craig Rigney [14:07]: So taking all that into account, I think that cultural connection has to be there. And sadly with every Aboriginal person that we’ve worked with, intergenerational trauma is the number one factor in there. So they’ve used violence because they haven’t had an understanding that one, it’s not okay, and two, a real lack of strategies and mechanisms to put in place before an act of violence. And without saying that that’s okay or giving these guys an excuse, because it’s not, it’s giving them an insight to who they are and why they act and react in certain manners. And nearly every guy that we’ve worked with have said, “Well, this is the first time anyone’s asked me who I am, where do I come from, what’s going on for me.” So the difference with our programs is yes, we’re talking about the act of violence and making sure that they understand why that is and shouldn’t be happening, but we’re unpacking all their historical trauma. So we’re giving them an insight to who they are and some strategies and mechanisms and coping mechanisms. And we’ve seen some fantastic changes in some of these men who’ve just put their hand up and gone, “Okay, you’re right. I’m dealing with a lot of stuff that I’ve never unpacked before. So my frustration is to lash out at someone that loves me or someone that’s there in front of me.”
Dana Shen [15:21]: You began to touch on this when you were talking a bit about young Aboriginal men, but I wondered, what can practitioners do to promote respectful relationships among young Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander men and women in their work?
Craig Rigney [15:37]: I think it’s that part around your own values and beliefs, and exploring what people see as normal, and the normalisation of violence now across the globe today. And I think that’s got a massive impact. Our tolerance has just dropped away. Now what we’re seeing as normal acts of this and normal acts of that, 20, 30, 40 years ago, we wouldn’t put up with that. So I think there really needs to be conversations at an early point. The earlier we can have conversations around what a safe and respectful relationship looks like with both males and females, the better. I think we can start embedding some of our cultural strengths and our cultural knowledge.
Craig Rigney [16:19]: I think practitioners just need to have an understanding of who we are as Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, our journey, and again, not to assume that you know who we are and what our journey has meant for each and every one of us, because each journey is different. Not assuming what that person’s going to say next, just sit and listen. And to be mindful of who you are in their space, that there’s a certain amount of power that comes with the work. Our families, and they’ve told us this, that they are scared, that they feel that there’s a power imbalance when a worker comes to talk to them because the worker’s judging. So how do we, from a practitioner point of view, sit with our families and make them feel comfortable around who we are, because I think that human connection is also very, very important because for far too long, people would just sit and judge and they can get it wrong. I mean, of course, now that’s going to have dire consequences for our families and for our children.
Dana Shen [17:20]: Earlier, you spoke a bit about the model, and in particular, how you work with all people within the family, including children. And I wondered, what are some of the strategies and approaches that KWY takes in promoting children’s social and emotional wellbeing in this work?
Craig Rigney [17:39]: For far too long, we have overlooked the children’s voice in this work. And we see children acting out. We know what can happen when children are exposed to traumatic and stressful situations in an ongoing period. So I think what we try to do is, again, working in that holistic manner with the family is creating a safe space for the children to have a conversation and for their voice to be heard. Now again, you need a very well-trained practitioner to be able to do that, and not just to work with Aboriginal children, but any children. So as an organisation, we aim to give our staff the best training that we can to arm themselves with knowledge to share, to get those children and parents to a safe space where we can sit and listen to the children, to listen to what they’ve got to say and not to underestimate them.
Craig Rigney [18:38]: And I think that’s what a lot of practitioners do. They underestimate how much a child knows, how much a child hears, and that children have a right to have a voice and in particular, be involved in some of those family decisions. And I think we often overlook that. And I think that we often think that, “Well, that child’s seven years old. I’m their parent. I’ll tell them what to do.” It’s not the child’s fault if they’re witnessing domestic violence in the home. And what we don’t know is just how much trauma is soaking to their spirit, into their soul and into their DNA until it’s too late. And then we see the children acting out, we see the children swearing, we see the children not going to school, we see the children closing themselves off and withdrawing, and we know that that’s very dangerous. So to give the child a space where they can express how they are and how they’re feeling and what they would love to see, I think it’s really crucial for us to be able to do that.
Dana Shen [19:36]: I also wondered, how do you think practitioners could connect parents with their children’s experiences more in family and domestic violence?
Craig Rigney [19:49]: And when I talk about this in the model that we use, and we’re working with the children, working with mom or working with dad or the male and the female where the family violence is happening, you’ve got to get the entire family to a safe space before you can really bring them together and talk about this. And that’s got to be led by the individuals in there, and in particularly by the adults, because we want to make sure that the adults in the family unit are at a space and at a time where they’re both feeling okay about having that conversation, and that they’re past blaming each other for that conversation. So we need them to be sitting in a space where they’re safe with each other, and they’re feeling safe for that conversation to take place, because we’re about to bring in a child into this.
Craig Rigney [20:34]: Keep emphasising this, how skilled your workforce is to be able to do that. If you get that timing wrong, you’re going to increase risk. You’re going to put the children at risk. You’re going to put one of those parents, or one of those adults in that family home at risk as well. So being able to tie that together at the right time is crucial. And the way that we’re able to do that is we use a lot of mapping tools where we’re gauging what’s happening in the family unit. So we’re educating the parents through this process as well, that it’s okay to have arguments and debates, but it’s when we don’t want them to escalate too far outside around those realms of safety that are crucial.
Dana Shen [21:12]: Thanks, Craig. Now, we know that there are many occasions when partners end up wanting to stay together, even with domestic and family violence in their history or happening. How can practitioners strengthen the positive relationships within the family if parents choose to stay together?
Craig Rigney [21:34]: Look, I think firstly, it’s the choice of those parents to stay together. And I think practitioners are going to understand that. And of course, everything that we do is around safety of women and children, and that’s always got to be at the heart of the decision-making and the heart of what we want to do. But if a woman says, “Oh, I want to stay in this relationship,” then it’s up to us to work with her and her partner to make sure that that is a safe space for those adults to sit in. And again, it comes back to conversations, it comes back to ensuring that the perpetrator, and we’ll use gendered violence, so the male is the perpetrator, that he’s got access to support, he’s got access to understand why he’s using violence: so it may be a perpetrator program, it may be online counselling, it may be a one-on-one counselling service; that he understands where he is and why he’s doing what he’s doing, and that we’re able to work holistically with the woman and the children at the same time.
Craig Rigney [22:36]: Now that can be difficult because some systems that are in place are put in place to drive those adults apart. And what I mean by that is, say an Aboriginal woman has experienced violence and wants to get out. So she goes to an accommodation service, or she’ll go to a DV gateway, and then she’s in that system. If she wants to get back out of that system and to reconnect with the man who’s used violence against her, that can be difficult for her. Now, that means that some of her supports there through other organisations, through other programs may cease. So what we want to understand, is that if there’s a choice where the woman and the man want to stay together, and it is her choice, we’ve got to respect that. So we then start looking at safety planning, we start looking at the safety context in the family home, what does that look like, environmental? And the practitioners will start to, again, use some of their tools to map out what’s going on in the home, and to continue to be in there as much as the family allows us to be in there.
Craig Rigney [23:44]: So for us, it’s being able to listen to the family, being able to listen to the two adults in that family unit, and working with them around what they want. And nine out of 10 times, it’s, “We want the violence to stop. I need the violence to stop in my home. I love him.” So what can we do to work with him to get where he needs to be? So then we’ve got to start unpacking what’s going on for that individual and why they’re using violence. Not just the fact that violence shouldn’t happen, but what’s going on for him? Why is he using violence? And I guess that’s the big question. We know violence shouldn’t happen. In a perfect world, we wouldn’t see any violence against women and children. Violence is inexcusable, but we still need to know why he’s using violence, because if we can understand why he uses violence, then we can educate that person, give him the mechanisms, the strategies to start self-coping, to start putting in those roadblocks themselves to go, “Oh, okay, take a breath, calm down, walk outside, go for a walk around the block. Come back, have the discussion,” rather than just arguing up and letting loose like they might have in the past.
Dana Shen [24:53]: You’ve spoken about so many different, complex layers and issues about the system, the organisation, our responsibilities, our culture, our strengths, racism, intergenerational trauma that’s happened in our lives. I wondered, if there were three key messages that you could give practitioners about what they should be thinking about when they’re working with our families in family and domestic violence situations, what would those three key messages be?
Craig Rigney [25:28]: I think firstly is reflect on who you are, and do your values and beliefs fit with the work that you’re doing, because that will then roll into my second message around, you cannot bring your own values and beliefs to the work that we’re doing and impose them on other people. And it’s really hard not to do that as people, as human beings, because we all have a moral compass that we are brought up on. So I think those two most definitely. But take your time. Active listening is crucial to the work that we do and I can hear practitioners going, “Oh, but my boss says I’ve got 45 minutes. I’ve got to be in and out.” We’ve got this rotating door system that has been set up by funding bodies that we can’t spend the time we need to spend with them, we need to get KPIs on board. So acknowledge that, take it back to whoever you work for, yarn up, talk up and really advocate for a system that isn’t gender biassed, that isn’t racist, and a system that allows for self-determination to be the foundations of working with Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal people.
Dana Shen [26:41]: All right. Thank you so much, Craig, for your time today.
Craig Rigney [26:44]: You’re welcome.
Narrator [26:48]: Thank you for joining us in our podcast series, Listening to Stories of Healing. Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au to access a range of resources to assist your practice. Brought to you by the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health, led by Emerging Minds. The National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health, under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.