Transcript for
Why siblings fight and when to step in

Narrator (00:02): 

Welcome to the Emerging Minds Families podcast. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (00:05): 

Hi, I’m Alicia Ranford and you’re listening to an Emerging Minds Families podcast. Before we begin, I’d like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is being recorded, the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains and thank them for the care they have taken of this beautiful country. I also pay respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, their ancestors and elders past, present, and emerging from the different First Nations across Australia. 

(00:36): 

Sibling rivalry can be really challenging to navigate, and it’s something most parents have to manage at one time or another. Joining us back in the studio today is parent educator and mum of four Gen Muir, who is going to help us think about what’s going on beneath the surface when siblings argue, and how can we guide our kids towards connection instead, even when they are driving each other and probably us up the wall. Welcome, Gen. It’s so great to have you here with us again today. 

Gen Muir (Guest) (01:06): 

Thank you so much for having me. And what a great topic. As a mum of four, I have felt every bit of this one deeply. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (01:14): 

I agree. I think this is one of my favourite topics we’ve ever done at Emerging Minds Families, because I don’t know that there’s a parent out there who hasn’t had to deal with it in one way or the other. 

Gen Muir (Guest) (01:24): 

Yeah, I think you said in that intro, we’ve all dealt with it at one stage, and I’m like, “Don’t you mean eight times an hour?” 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (01:30): 

On eight different topics within that hour. So Gen, I guess that’s a good place to start. Is there a difference between kids just arguing over something silly and genuine sibling rivalry? 

Gen Muir (Guest) (01:42): 

Yeah. Look, I think that the first thing that is so important, I think, to start with is why is it one of the hardest things for us as parents when our kids fight. And I think that’s a really important question to reflect on, first of all, because it is one of the hardest aspects of parenting. It is the one area that will have us overreacting, coming in big, coming in hot, not being the parent that we want to be. And the reality is when our kids fight in the moment, it can make us as parents worry that they might never get along. And that’s extremely hard because one of the biggest values we have or one of the reasons we have more than one child is to give them a friend. 

(02:21): 

So when in the moment they seem hellbent on murdering each other or pulling each other down, it can feel like, “Oh no, we’ve failed at something we really, really value.” So I think that’s a really important baseline to then unpack the fact that healthy, normal siblings will fight up to eight times an hour, particularly between the ages of three and eight where sibling fighting peaks the most. And this is all healthy and normal. This is how kids learn about conflict and negotiation. It’s also because siblings are annoying. They’re in your grill, they know your buttons to push and it is just hard. 

(02:59): 

But also, and equally, there can be siblings fighting where if we’re feeling it’s unrelenting, it’s not getting better, it’s one kid consistently pulling down the other and it feels repetitive or really difficult or it’s impacting the family. That’s when we’re often looking at a deeper issue that would be more in that sibling rivalry sense. And actually the biggest reflection I would take any parent to look at is what is happening between us and that child. So often the reflection back is that kids will seek our connection, they will seek it in any way that gets us to come in and respond. 

(03:36): 

And I think we never respond bigger and deeper and with more focus than when our kids are fighting. So it really works to pull us in. But I think the deeper question for us as parents when there’s rivalry going on is to say, “What’s underneath this? What is my kid really asking for?” And a lot of the time, I passionately believe our kids are asking for something between us and them, and it’s not about the sibling at all. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (03:59): 

Okay, interesting. So it’s actually about them wanting us or our attention or drawing us into what perhaps is going on between them and their sibling. Is that right? 

Gen Muir (Guest) (04:11): 

100%. And if you think about it through that lens of kids will show emotions through behaviour, it makes so much sense. Because if we do have a sibling in the house, then the best and most effective way to draw those caregivers in every day of the week is going to be that sibling fighting. If there’s no sibling in the house, it’ll be the next best thing. So kids will go after the dog or it might be that they have struggles at dinner. 

(04:33): 

So it will always be the area that draws those parents in because kids as they’re growing that prefrontal cortex and developing their brains and their emotional literacy are unable to walk up and say, “Hey, mum, I’m having a hard time. I’m seeking connection. I’m feeling dysregulated.” What they do is they show us through their body, through their actions, and it so often will come out as repetitive, frustrating sibling rivalry. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (05:01): 

So from your experience, the thing or the major cause of sibling rivalry is really that dysregulation. So can you explain to parents a little bit more about what that means? 

Gen Muir (Guest) (05:13): 

Yeah, so kids climb into dysregulation. So at the point kids are hitting their sibling, at that point they’re offline. They’re no longer making choices with their logical brain. They’re really just their body is coming out through their actions. And that makes sense because often that sibling has knocked over their Lego tower or they’ve stolen their toy or whatever’s happening. Kids don’t have the skills to regulate through that and express that in a logical way. And so it will come out as, for example, sibling fighting. 

(05:42): 

Now there’s sort of two levels to that. One is we’ve got a skill that needs to get built and we sort of have to work on how do we build that skill of knowing how to communicate in a way that’s more pro social than hitting your brother. But at the same time, when we’re seeing that repetitive, consistent sibling fighting, often what our kids are communicating is that build into dysregulation. And the way that this build often looks goes something like this. It starts with low level behaviour that can be frustrating or annoying is how I often put it to parents. It’ll be whinging or whining, low level dysregulation is grumbling away. 

(06:23): 

At the mid-level where siblings are picking on each other or fighting, they’re at about a 5 out of 10 in that dysregulation, they’re really struggling to go well. And if we don’t step in and help them out with it at that point that they’re sort of starting to make those mistakes, then we will be in a 10 out of 10 where kids are melting down and everything’s gone to chaos, which is a normal part of family life. But when we start to see that build, you might notice that there is a building to the sibling fighting. 

(06:52): 

Most parents will describe a situation where you could stand in the kitchen and say in three seconds, someone is going to be crying because you can predict by the level of dysregulation the way the noise is building, the way the vibe is, we know someone’s going to be upset in about three seconds. So we almost do know it’s building in that direction. I actually have a story of missing an emotional climb that I think would be really good that ended in sibling fighting that I just think would be really good here. 

(07:21): 

One morning in my house, one of my little boys, he came into the kitchen. He was whinging about the fact we had no good food in the house. He was upset because someone had taken his special bowl for breakfast and annoyed about something to do with lunch. So just general stuff, right? The next thing, I walked into our study and he was gaming, which is not something we do on a weekday. So he’s broken a known rule. I call that an unreasonable request. That’s like a three-year-old asking for ice cream for breakfast. He’s doing something he knows is not quite right. 

(07:50): 

Even though I’m a parent educator, I didn’t notice he was on an emotional climb. I just said, “You’re not supposed to be doing that. Go and get dressed for school.” He goes into the bedroom and instead of getting dressed, I can hear him picking and picking and picking at his younger brother to the point that I know in three seconds, someone’s going to be crying. I tear in there. Did I catch he was on a climb into dysregulation? No, I did not. I tore in there and I said, “Cut it out and get dressed.” And he absolutely exploded. He exploded at his brother, exploded at me. 

(08:20): 

Because he lost it, I then sat with him and I listened to him and I worked out he was really nervous about a big presentation he had on at school that day, that actually all of that climb of behaviour was actually about him saying, “I’m just sort of not feeling okay in my body. I’m feeling really nervous about this speech that I’ve got at school, I don’t know how to articulate that.” So it comes out as whinging, as difficult behaviour, as breaking a rule and then picking on a sibling was that higher level of the climb. And I think that we can often look at behaviour through that lens and realise in hindsight, it’s just our kids communicating, “I’m not okay about something.” 

(08:56): 

So the question for us as parents is, that’s not like you, so what’s going on beneath this? If the picking on the sibling is the tip of the iceberg that we can see, everything beneath it is what might be impacting that behaviour. And I think it makes sense to sort of go for the sibling because he knew that would draw me in in the way that he needed in that time. So if we can view it a bit like that, I think that we can then say, “Okay, well, you’re a good kid and I can’t let you hit your brother. I’m here to help.” 

(09:24): 

And we absolutely want to step in and stop kids from hurting or name calling every day of the week. But in understanding that kids don’t want to be mucking up, they don’t want to be being difficult, they don’t want to be hitting their sibling. And often there is something going on underneath to kind of have them behaving in that way. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (09:40): 

Yes. And it’s a great way to describe it as that climb. That makes a lot of sense to me when I think about my own kids and how they used to be. And so I guess as a follow-up, I’ve got two questions I want to ask. In an ideal world, when everything’s going well and parenting’s never easy, but on those easier days, a parent would obviously catch them at that low level. So I guess my first question would be, what would a parent do that manages to catch it at that low level? 

Gen Muir (Guest) (10:06): 

So at low level where kids are still kind of regulated, their brain’s online. So when they’re whinging or whining or being annoying, they might be picking on a sibling, but they’re not totally at that 10 out of 10 level yet. We might step in and notice with curiosity, “Seems like you’re having a really hard time today. I wonder what’s going on.” And often it’ll come out that much earlier in that whole play. We might use humour. I love just using humour to lower cortisol. I might come in and my youngest son never wants to feed the dog. And then I pretend I am the dog and go, “I’m really hungry.” And he laughs every time and goes, “All right, puppy, come on.” And he feeds the dog. 

(10:44): 

And it’s like, yes, I could get into that head butt of that he finds morning transitions hard and his job of feeding the dog never feels fun, but if we can use humour, that’s really effective. But what I want parents to know is those strategies that you hear, giving kids choices, coming in and naming the feeling, using humour, they’re only going to work when our kids are able to go well. So in those lower level emotions, you’ve got all those strategies available to you. If you try that and kids are still building up and they’re going to pick on the sibling, which is absolutely going to happen, then most likely we’re just having to step in and help them out, particularly if a core rule is being broken. 

(11:21): 

So kids are hurting each other, so hitting, hurting, or name calling. If someone is saying stop crying or uncomfortable and the other person is not stopping, one of my core rules is that you have to stop and check on them, which I think is really important in teaching consent and reading social cues as well, particularly for boys. Those are those key rules around how we treat each other. So once I know that those are my core rules, I’m always stepping in if one of those is being broken. I don’t need to step into every sibling fight. So if my two kids both want the same toy, I can be nearby and say, “Wow, yeah, that’s really tough, guys. I can’t wait to see how you work it out.” 

(12:00): 

But I don’t have to get involved unless I can feel that build and I know, in three seconds, someone’s about to clock someone, then I’m stepping in, “Whoa, looks like things are out of hand here. I can see you are looking really mad and he’s crying. I’m here to help. I won’t let you guys hurt each other.” And that’s our role as parents every day of the week I think is to step in when they’re hurting, name calling or when one child is persisting with a game the other one is not liking. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (12:25): 

And so then what about for a parent where things are really hard? So perhaps they’re going through something big in their life and, to be honest, they’re probably dysregulated. I mean, there’s certainly been times in my life as a parent when I’ve been dysregulated. What advice would you have for them about watching the cues probably when a parent’s dysregulated, then they might not pick up on that low level stuff because they’ve got their own things going on. What would your advice be for a parent that’s going through something bigger in their life and sibling rivalry or this fighting is becoming problematic in the house and adding to what’s going on around them? 

Gen Muir (Guest) (12:58): 

Yeah, I would, every day of the week, work out who my protagonist is. It’s usually the eldest, but we won’t make that a rule, but it often is the eldest. I would go into that child. I would try to have 10 minutes of one-on-one, fully focused, special time. I want to dive into that child’s world. So if that child is two or three, I want to sit on the floor and play their train set with them or really genuinely join them in their favourite activity. If that child is 14, I want to say to them, “Can I join you in your favourite video game?” Or ask them to go for a walk or to the cafe. I want to really spend time making that child feel loved and worthy of love and just enjoy time with them. 

(13:40): 

I would start with that. And I reckon that is the biggest intervention we can do in terms of sibling fighting hands down. Yes, we can step in when they’re fighting. Yes, we can emotion coach around the edges, but if kids feel loved and worthy of love and that everything between us and them is okay, they feel less need to go after that sibling. They just feel better within themselves. 

(14:01): 

The second thing I would do is think about that child that is the protagonist again, and I would love you to think about what might be the bit that is hard for that child. So just say they’re the eldest and just say they’ve got a younger brother or sister who maybe is really disorganised in the morning and maybe they’re neurodivergent. They can’t organise their things and this older sibling is constantly coaching and parenting and yelling at this sibling and it causes all kinds of issues. And you’ve tried correcting and teaching and everything and it just happens every morning and you’re tearing your hair out. 

(14:35): 

I would love you to go into that child, sit down with them and say, “It must be so hard sometimes to be the eldest kid in this family and to have a sibling that is not organised when you are so organised and together, you must get so tired of that every day.” I think if we can do that, if we can sometimes even say the unsayable, sometimes you must not even like your brother, I can get that. If we can really allow our kids to feel heard in that, I think that’s our way through every day of the week because then we’ve got a child that goes, “Oh, you get it and I’m not alone with it.” 

(15:09): 

And that feeling that I’m holding that kind of mucks me up and gets me picking on that sibling constantly just dissipates a little. We’re now on a team. From that point, we can say, “What could I do in the mornings to help you so you didn’t feel like you had to be the parent? What could I do to help you out with that?” So that’s just one example of what I see in my work, that persistent sibling fighting where we’ve got an elder stepping in to parent that causes fighting and we can get stuck in the rumble, but when we step back and think connection first and then empathy for what it might be like. 

(15:40): 

And I swear of my four boys, if there is a struggle, the most powerful sentence I can say is, “It must be hard to be the youngest, the eldest, the middle child.” And they just go, “Yeah, it is.” Because it is. There will be things about every role in a family or living with a sibling and what they bring to our homes that is challenging and particularly for kids where there is a child that is either particularly gorgeous and lovable, I think that’s hard to be the sibling of or particularly demanding. We have kids that either have a disability or they’re neurodivergent or they just take a lot of the family’s energy. You might find the child sitting quietly on the side of that is picking fights, but they’re just feeling unseen in that struggle. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (16:26): 

And isn’t that time of connection with your child, not only good for your child, but also for you as a parent, particularly in that scenario that I mentioned before when maybe there’s a big life event going on, not only good for the child, but also for you as a parent. 

Gen Muir (Guest) (16:41): 

Yeah, because you also get to see them and you’re like, “That’s right, you’re a good kid.” And we can see that more clearly when we come up alongside them. And we really do have that beautiful opportunity to then say, “How can I support you? What can we do different?” It’s not going to change everything, but the biggest breakthroughs I’ve had with my boys when we’ve hit struggle points has been through really coming in with that empathy for what it is that might be hard. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (17:07): 

It’s wonderful. Now, I wanted to go back to something that you said earlier and you mentioned for boys, sometimes social cues can be problematic. Can you tell me a little bit about that because that resonates with me? 

Gen Muir (Guest) (17:20): 

Yes. So I’m a mum of four boys and I’ve spent about a decade of my life on the floor of an OT’s office. So I’ve learned a lot from these beautiful occupational therapists. And for anyone wondering, there are two kinds of OT. So there’s OT that is about helping our kids with their fine motor skills or sitting up and writing with a pen. And there’s OT that works on reading social cues and getting along with others, regulating emotions. And I find that a lot of boys are at least two years behind girls in reading particularly nonverbal cues and being able to respond in a prosocial way. So not always, and sometimes it’s girls, but most often it’s boys. 

(18:02): 

It’s actually through sibling fighting that we can best teach the ability to read social cues. And the way that I would recommend you do it, I’ll just give you a practical example. You’ve got two kids on a trampoline. We’ve got one that is having the time of their life and we’ve got another that either looks worried or they’re crying or they’re just not enjoying the game. And we’ve got one child that we can see that this child’s not enjoying it. Why is this child not stopping? Our instinct as parents might be, stop that. We tell them what to do, which feels effective. But the truth is they’re not learning to read the nonverbal cues that were there in the other child. So it might be a sibling, might be a friend. 

(18:38): 

What we can do different that teaches kids how to read these cues is we come up and we narrate like we’re a sportscaster or we’re calling a horse race what’s happening. I see two kids, one of them’s having a really good time, but I’m looking at Liam’s face. He’s looking a bit worried. He looks like he’s about to cry. Should we check if he’s okay? Should we check in with him? It sounds like I’m being a bit obvious, but it is one of the most incredible things I’ve done with my kids. You start doing this and they start to go, “Oh, you okay?” Yeah, he was crying. His shoulders were tensed and he was saying, “Stop.” Yeah, that means he’s not liking it. 

(19:14): 

And I know that sounds really obvious, but actually little boys do want to go well and often they’re so excited. They’re not hearing a lot of those words. Kids will hear about 2 in 10 of another person’s words when they’re dysregulated. And if they’re really overexcited in a big rough and tumble game of trampoline, they’re just not reading that. And so if we make it really overt for them, I’m looking at your friend and you want to give him a big hug, but I notice he’s grabbing onto his mum. I wonder if he’s not quite ready for that hug yet. So we’re just narrating what might be happening from that other child’s perspective and what we can do. 

(19:49): 

And kids really pick up on this really beautifully and they learn a lot faster. I love it because I think it is the backbone of consent for our older kids. I think it’s such an important topic and we’re coming in way too late if we try and teach our boys this at 16. If they can’t read a low level look of discomfort, that’s going to be a real problem later in life. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (20:11): 

And what a nice, gentle way to do it as well, that narrator and pointing things out to them. 

Gen Muir (Guest) (20:16): 

We can even do it with rough play with us. Sometimes our kids will play with us. They’re maybe being a bit rough and we’re saying, “Oh, I don’t like it.” But we can say, “Oh, don’t look at my face. I don’t like it when you do that. We can keep playing, but not if you do this.” And so being really clear with our rough and tumble play raises, particularly boys that know where the edges are, that can read those really sort of subtle nonverbal cues, which is so important. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (20:41): 

And are there other emotions that this sibling rivalry can teach children over and above those social cues? Are there other things kids can learn? 

Gen Muir (Guest) (20:49): 

Yeah, I mean, I think they’re learning everything. I think they’re learning frustration tolerance and in a world … I would love to add in a world where kids are getting less opportunity to experience frustration than ever, because they don’t have to rewind their videos and they don’t have to sit through ad breaks and they’ve got constant entertainment to fill in any moments of boredom or frustration, siblings will feel extraordinarily frustrating to these kids because they’re not having as much frustration in their worlds. 

(21:21): 

And yet I would view it and I say, I did a class today at the Mada Hospital for parents welcoming a second baby, and it was all about helping your older child adjust. And a few of them felt quite emotional with the thought that their older child now had to learn to share them with someone else. And I went, “I totally understand that feeling. And I want to reassure you that yeah, there will be times they feel jealous and there will be times they feel frustrated at having to wait while their sibling comes first. And yet what a wonderful opportunity for them to flex that muscle of frustration and that builds resilience.” 

(21:53): 

And then it means when they do go out into the world and they’re that little bit older, it’s through our sibling that we’ve had that opportunity to feel that we can be annoyed at someone and still find a way through, that sharing is hard, that competing for our parents’ attention, all of those emotions make sense and it gives kids that opportunity I think primarily to build resilience, frustration tolerance, as well as communication skills. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (22:16): 

I love that in like 30 minutes we’ve turned it around from being something that’s problematic to actually what a great learning opportunity and let’s hope all kids do it so that they can learn these amazing things. Within this, is there a role in celebrating the differences between siblings whilst making sure children all feel a sense of belonging and importance within the family? 

Gen Muir (Guest) (22:37): 

Yeah, I think it’s really important to celebrate the unique things kids bring, those gifts. I don’t think we need to make everything even. I think one of the catches with siblings is that we can get in a rut of counting out how many blueberries everybody gets or making sure that if someone gets a special recognition because they did something this week, we have to give something to everybody else. I think again, that keeps parents on a treadmill of trying to keep everything even and it’s exhausting because you never can. But I do think we can really recognise the gifts that each of our kids bring and try to focus on that and bring that into the family. 

(23:15): 

I love finding little moments to brag about my kid and something they’ve done within their earshot just to really have them overhear you telling someone else about something that they’ve done that was kind or that was in the values of the family or a real effort they’re making at something. Recognising that for each child is really, really powerful. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (23:34): 

That’s a lovely reminder, isn’t it, that we don’t have to be wholly even between things. It sort of all works out in the wash after a while, hopefully. And do you think that routines can help settle children who perhaps are niggling at each other? Do you think routines and rituals play a role in sibling rivalry? 

Gen Muir (Guest) (23:53): 

Both. So yes, and particularly for little kids, routines and rules as they get older. So routines around what are the rules around bedtime or around playtime or will someone step in every time we snatch? Rules like that are really helpful so kids know where the edges are. And I think that makes them feel safe and kids that feel safe need to pull us in less. So that will help. As kids get older, I think having fair rules, like how is everybody contributing will impact sibling rivalry and whether things feel fair. Justice is really important to kids. So if you’ve got an older kid doing a lot, how is that younger child also participating and pulling their weight without making it fair because that younger child won’t be able to do as much. 

(24:36): 

So that’s our rules and our routines, but our rituals I think can be the game changer. So the ritual that my family does is we play a game that my husband actually got from a work junket called High Low Buffalo. Everybody goes around the table at night and shares the high of their day, the low of their day and something they want everybody to know. And we started it years ago. It has been so transformative for our family in that every night there are no phones, we are connecting. I’ve got one child that doesn’t like to always share. And at first when we used to do it, he’d say, “Skip, skip, skip.” He would just skip every question. 

(25:11): 

And now he will always answer at least one of those things and give us a little bit of information. And I find when siblings learn a little bit about the highs and the lows of each other’s days, they look forward to the ritual of the sharing of hearing what mum and dad have had happen as well. And I think that can bring you closer together and it builds also. We know that rituals, they build something that can hold. And I can imagine maybe one day they all come home to dinner with all their kids and we do High Low Buffalo with an extended family. I can imagine that could become something really powerful that could live on beyond this dinner table right now as well. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (25:50): 

Oh yeah, and across generations. And I know my co-host, Nadia, who has younger children, it is absolutely a ritual in her household and she’ll love to hear that. It actually came from a junket that your husband was on. That’s fantastic. I love that. 

Gen Muir (Guest) (26:05): 

Be honest, all my best ideas come from my husband. I’m the one with the public profile. He’s such a good parent. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (26:11): 

That is fantastic. Yeah, so many dads are. We hear a lot from parents about the shame and embarrassment when, and I think particularly when they’re out and about and their kids are fighting and a parent doesn’t know what to do, what would you say to those parents about the feelings that they’re having in that moment? 

Gen Muir (Guest) (26:28): 

Well, that makes so much sense. It’s never been harder to be a parent in terms of the information that we have. And then the feeling of getting it wrong and judgement when kids are going to do what kids do and be themselves and particularly in public. I mean, I often say to people, if you can just get out of there, that is my biggest advice. You’re allowed to say, “That’s it. We’re out of here.” And we deal with it in the car. I almost, if it’s possible to just get out of that public space when kids are imploding, they can’t go any better. If you can’t, then it’s about, we get through the situation as best as we can. 

(27:01): 

And sometimes I say to parents, try to imagine that there is a dome over you and your child or your children, just say you are navigating a sibling spat on Christmas day and one child’s dunked the other in the pool or whatever’s happened. You do the best you can to validate both kids’ experience. I know that there are two good kids here. And even if one kid has done the dunking, I’m still like, “I’m wondering, something must have happened to have you do that because I know you’re a good kid and I can see you’re upset and I’m going to come to you in a second. I’m here with you guys. I’m not going to let you do that. It’s not safe, but I can see we’ve had a real struggle.” But obviously doing that in public is really hard. And I like to imagine there’s a dome over me if I can’t get me and my kids out of the eye. 

(27:43): 

But the idea of others judging us, it is so hard. I think most of the time people are just thinking, “Oh gosh, I’m so glad your kids fight too because mine fight as well. And I’m just so relieved it’s not just me.” I mean, I think that’s what most of us are thinking, but yeah, I think it can be really hard. And the judgement of older generations I think can be hard for millennial parents that are maybe doing things more gentle and they’ve got an older person in a family gathering saying, “Well, in my day, I would’ve just given that child a smacked bottom.” And you’re thinking, oh God, it can feel like it’s not working, but hang in there because it is worth it. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (28:19): 

That’s such a great point about the generational differences in parenting. Times are different and thank goodness. Every parent has been through those times, haven’t they? 

Gen Muir (Guest) (28:29): 

I was at a cafe this morning and one lady there, her dog lunged at the other dog and was being a naughty dog and the other dog was sitting really good. And this lady said, “I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. He’s just a puppy. He’s learning.” And the other lady said, “Oh, normally it’s my dog that does that.” And I thought, “Oh, this is so relatable.” 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (28:50): 

And take it as a bonding moment between two dog owners or two parents who get it and that’s lovely. For any parents listening that feel really discouraged by constant fighting between their children, what will you say to help them feel a bit more hopeful? 

Gen Muir (Guest) (29:04): 

All kids are fighting. I don’t care what you see on social media. My kids are fighting, your kids are fighting and they’re meant to fight. And I think if we can embrace that, great, they’re building frustration tolerance, tick. And then if that fighting is feeling persistent and regular and there’s something more in it, then we want to get curious and think, how can I start with curiosity and connection and empathy is always the way through. If we can sort of start with something that opens that conversation and gets us on a team, particularly of that child that is the protagonist, I think that can make a huge difference. 

(29:39): 

But start with self-compassion for you as a parent, sibling fighting feels hard because something you really value, your kids getting along long-term is being threatened or it feels like it’s being threatened. So if you can catch that and go, “Yeah, this is something I really value, but what I know is that most kids fight and that I can teach these skills and it will It’ll get easier and all of that.” 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (30:01): 

And you’ve given us some great examples on actually how to be curious today. So thank you so much for that. I think that all parents listening today will take away a lot. And if there was just one or two things you’d want parents to take away from our conversation today, what would they be? 

Gen Muir (Guest) (30:18): 

Know that when kids are persistently fighting, they’re often seeking out something from us. So it’s not about your child hating their sibling. It’s about your child saying, “I need help with something between me and you.” And if we can just do that reframe, I think everything goes better from there. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (30:35): 

Yeah, that’s a great point to finish on. Gen, thank you so much for joining us. Again, it’s lovely to see you and hear from you. 

Gen Muir (Guest) (30:43): 

Thank you so much for having me on again. 

Alicia Ranford (Host) (30:45): 

And thank you for our listeners. If you would like to keep up to date with our latest conversations, we’d love it if you’d like and subscribe to our Emerging Minds Families podcast channel. You can also find us on Instagram, @emergingmindsau or on Facebook at Emerging Minds Families. 

Narrator (31:03): 

Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au/families for a wide range of free information and resources to help support child and family mental health. Emerging Minds leads the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health. The centre is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.